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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary Chinese
(MF-Warburg)
2. Re: Proposed changes to LPP (MF-Warburg)
3. Re: Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary Chinese
(Gerard Meijssen)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 18:01:42 +0100
From: MF-Warburg <mfwarburg@googlemail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary
Chinese
Message-ID:
<CAJKMOMUq0wkgQ=jNwhqN12UWAEJ6XZKRbxg-859JKBAXQehhFw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hello and apologies that I only answer on the 7th day, but this is a really
complex matter.
I have come to a different conclusion and think that the request should not
be rejected, but rather made eligible under the current rules.
Saying that this content must go to zh.ws is rather similar to saying
"Latin content should be on es.ws, as that is the daughter with the most
speakers".
[We see again here the problem with having Wikisource subdomains, which
also leads to funny situations where half a book is on one wiki, and the
other half on the other, as in <
https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fla.wikisource.org%2Fwiki%2FPagina%3AVirgile_-_G%25C3%25A9orgiques%2C_traduction_Desportes%2C_1846%2C_2.djvu%2F40&data=02%7C01%7C%7C76b68b02772e49d789a208d69054fd52%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636855092034914407&sdata=RpHL%2BLemIrFjVFlavtUhkB0HNe8MTot4FhHuOhobAkw%3D&reserved=0
>.]
Am Mo., 4. Feb. 2019 um 23:39 Uhr schrieb Steven White <
Koala19890@hotmail.com>:
> MF-Warburg reversed what he felt was a premature and unilateral decision
> on my part to reject this request, and rightly so. (This is not least
> because I *just* promised to continue to post non-routine closings here.)
> My apologies to the Committee. Nevertheless, I am proposing to reject this
> request, which has been actively running for about three months.
>
> In certain respects, Literary Chinese has parallels to Latin, in that it
> was the literary *lingua franca* in much of East Asia—not just China—for
> centuries. On the basis of policy, one could thus justify allowing this as
> an independent project (currently in Multilingual Wikisource). At the same
> time, it is also a historical version of Chinese, and on the basis of
> policy, one could also justify housing this content in Chinese Wikisource.
>
> As a practical matter, there is substantial Literary Chinese content in
> Chinese Wikisource already, and very little in Multilingual Wikisource.
> Except for the person who made the request, everyone else who contributed
> to the discussion on Meta feels that Literary Chinese is adequately and
> properly curated on Chinese Wikisource.
>
> Over the course of the discussion, I made one request of the Chinese
> Wikisource community, and that was to make it possible for non-Mandarin
> speakers having an interest in this content to have a way to communicate
> other than in Mandarin. They have done so.
>
> It doesn't really serve the bulk of the Literary Chinese community, nor
> WMF in general, to split Literary Chinese out from Chinese Wikisource as an
> independent project. The objections of the one user making the request
> notwithstanding, Wikisource content in Literary Chinese is better off
> staying in Chinese Wikisource.
>
> The discussion page is here
> <
https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRequests_for_new_languages%2FWikisource_Literary_Chinese&data=02%7C01%7C%7C76b68b02772e49d789a208d69054fd52%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636855092034914407&sdata=6t1wY5k4ZLJbvx7fq4iCnxkAIOfimeEbCgPjYN07akk%3D&reserved=0>.
> Thank you in advance for your comments. If there are not objections in
> seven days, I will proceed to close.
>
> Steven
>
> Sent from Outlook <
https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fweboutlook&data=02%7C01%7C%7C76b68b02772e49d789a208d69054fd52%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636855092034914407&sdata=dffjFcNdiX8pnGRGQecgxxtOhEz%2FSefdON0EJ%2B5Zsd4%3D&reserved=0>
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 18:22:54 +0100
From: MF-Warburg <mfwarburg@googlemail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Proposed changes to LPP
Message-ID:
<CAJKMOMX=ra1VE6mTbn=3uy3HkifNdNPdcz3bKsTPP8+5-6rVGg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Am Di., 5. Feb. 2019 um 00:18 Uhr schrieb Steven White <
koala19890@hotmail.com>:
> MF-W, I never saw your email on the proposed LPP changes at the time.
> What's more, I just looked through my email again, and still didn't see it.
> I only found your response when I looked at the online archive of the
> private list. I don't know what happened there, but I really was not trying
> to ignore any input. I promise you that, and apologize that it must appear
> otherwise.
>
That is credible to me; that's a somewhat known bug I think. I also
sometimes don't receive a certain mail from a mailing list and am then
surprised when an answer to such a mail appears.
I will not post the proposed changes live today at all. I will move them
> back to my sandbox, unhide them, and incorporate many of your comments.
> Look here <
https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FUser%3AStevenJ81%2Fsandbox&data=02%7C01%7C%7C76b68b02772e49d789a208d69054fd52%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636855092034924376&sdata=Ckn9g2JwRw9phYWdLK0qn1xHQ3ZvUxgNwLU2uLVq4fY%3D&reserved=0>
> (perhaps an hour after this email): Just a few points in response to that
> email:
>
> - The reason I added the introductory remark is that people always
> keep asking why such-and-such project is allowed (Latin Wikipedia is often
> cited) when it goes against policy. I added that line to forestall the
> constant questions. If you don't think it should stay, that's fine, but
> that's why I put it.
>
> I see. If kept, I'd rewrite it with something that doesn't necessitate
explaining the term "grandfathered". It could also be put at the
introduction to the policy page (section "The language committee processes
requests...") right now, I guess.
>
> - New point 1 was old point 1, too. (It's not actually a new point.)
> The only thing that actually changed was a footnote leading to the place
> where completely new projects can be requested. On the current version of
> the page you'll see that. I can remove if you want, but it was already
> there.
>
> (Must have been some problem with the automatic numbering wrt the points).
The footnote is new, isn't it? I suggest putting the link to "Proposals for
new projects" into the text instead of a footnote, as a compromise [I
dislike footnotes ;)]
>
> - Point 2 included the BCP 47 issue already. But I will remove the 2/3
> vote bit.
> - Point 3: I will shorten the macrolanguage part.
> - Point 4: Concerning ancient languages:
> - I was confused, then, by what happened with Coptic. When I went
> back just now and looked at the discussion on Coptic in July 2017, what I
> saw didn't really say much on a Coptic Wikipedia; it spoke more to the
> possibility of a Wikisource and of interface translation, with some people
> saying that potentially they could see a Coptic Wikipedia being allowed in
> the future. Then you marked the project on-wiki as "eligible".
>
> Ehm wow. I'm surprised that that happened.
>
> - It seems to me that it will be hard to say that Coptic can be
> eligible but Ancient Greek cannot. I tried to write that provision
> narrowly, so as to capture Ancient Greek without opening the door to every
> ancient language in history. I do think, especially given Coptic, that we
> need to allow Ancient Greek. But if the Committee thinks it's better to say
> "we decided to allow it notwithstanding policy as an exception", that's OK.
>
> As I said in the mail from 30 Dec, I think we need a fundamental decision
on principles of what ancient languages should be allowed, if any.
>
> - I think Wikipedia is different from other projects with respect to
> ancient languages, though. I think it's entirely reasonable to imagine that
> someone who knows Latin or Ancient Greek might go to those Wikipedias to
> look up something about Rome or Athens. (That's certainly as reasonable as
> someone going to Jamaican Creole Wikipedia to look up something about
> Jamaica.) I don't think I can really see that someone would go to an
> Ancient Greek or Latin Wikivoyage to look at travel issues, even about Rome
> or Athens. That's why I handled those differently.
>
> That makes sense (though I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes up with
some unexpected usecases, though maybe not for Wikivoyage).
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 20:13:07 +0100
From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary
Chinese
Message-ID:
<CAO53wxU=cAfYN5FH99fUrMTGOtXb4Wa5BZg6dUONzgiizz78mg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hoi,
Reality check. The Chinese community does not want it.. There is one person
who does and we are to support it? Really?
Thanks,
GerardM
On Mon, 11 Feb 2019 at 18:02, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hello and apologies that I only answer on the 7th day, but this is a
> really complex matter.
>
> I have come to a different conclusion and think that the request should
> not be rejected, but rather made eligible under the current rules.
> Saying that this content must go to zh.ws is rather similar to saying
> "Latin content should be on es.ws, as that is the daughter with the most
> speakers".
>
> [We see again here the problem with having Wikisource subdomains, which
> also leads to funny situations where half a book is on one wiki, and the
> other half on the other, as in <
>
https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fla.wikisource.org%2Fwiki%2FPagina%3AVirgile_-_G%25C3%25A9orgiques%2C_traduction_Desportes%2C_1846%2C_2.djvu%2F40&data=02%7C01%7C%7C76b68b02772e49d789a208d69054fd52%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636855092034924376&sdata=HVNUrnye53KHnCxbSF9sLSzxCdOw3%2FKzZc8VmpVk%2FSk%3D&reserved=0
> >.]
>
> Am Mo., 4. Feb. 2019 um 23:39 Uhr schrieb Steven White <
> Koala19890@hotmail.com>:
>
>> MF-Warburg reversed what he felt was a premature and unilateral decision
>> on my part to reject this request, and rightly so. (This is not least
>> because I *just* promised to continue to post non-routine closings
>> here.) My apologies to the Committee. Nevertheless, I am proposing to
>> reject this request, which has been actively running for about three months.
>>
>> In certain respects, Literary Chinese has parallels to Latin, in that it
>> was the literary *lingua franca* in much of East Asia—not just China—for
>> centuries. On the basis of policy, one could thus justify allowing this as
>> an independent project (currently in Multilingual Wikisource). At the same
>> time, it is also a historical version of Chinese, and on the basis of
>> policy, one could also justify housing this content in Chinese Wikisource.
>>
>> As a practical matter, there is substantial Literary Chinese content in
>> Chinese Wikisource already, and very little in Multilingual Wikisource.
>> Except for the person who made the request, everyone else who contributed
>> to the discussion on Meta feels that Literary Chinese is adequately and
>> properly curated on Chinese Wikisource.
>>
>> Over the course of the discussion, I made one request of the Chinese
>> Wikisource community, and that was to make it possible for non-Mandarin
>> speakers having an interest in this content to have a way to communicate
>> other than in Mandarin. They have done so.
>>
>> It doesn't really serve the bulk of the Literary Chinese community, nor
>> WMF in general, to split Literary Chinese out from Chinese Wikisource as an
>> independent project. The objections of the one user making the request
>> notwithstanding, Wikisource content in Literary Chinese is better off
>> staying in Chinese Wikisource.
>>
>> The discussion page is here
>> <
https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRequests_for_new_languages%2FWikisource_Literary_Chinese&data=02%7C01%7C%7C76b68b02772e49d789a208d69054fd52%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636855092034924376&sdata=NF1xFP2KCrKUM1WusN9NjzqNO65pGG%2F2T%2F0mRsURYRo%3D&reserved=0>.
>> Thank you in advance for your comments. If there are not objections in
>> seven days, I will proceed to close.
>>
>> Steven
>>
>> Sent from Outlook <
https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fweboutlook&data=02%7C01%7C%7C76b68b02772e49d789a208d69054fd52%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636855092034924376&sdata=o2E2ljl9IkLxmN%2F21QMzlQ%2FiVAl5qeG4os5ovwY9a4M%3D&reserved=0>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Langcom mailing list
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>>
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