I think this first set of five Wikipedia requests from 2012 is pretty straightforward, even if I am going to leave three of them open for a week to make sure nobody has a problem with my proposed disposition of the requests. However, do please start keeping an eye on these, because the next couple of sets are going to raise some policy questions that I am really going to need LangCom as a whole to address. Thank you.
----
Wikipedia Mi'kmaq<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Micmac> (mic): Aboriginal language of New England and the Atlantic Provinces of Canada. 7200 native speakers. Test has over 200 pages, albeit mostly one-liners with pictures. Eligible.
Valencian Wikipedia<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Valenc…>: This is described as the main language of the autonomous community of Valencia in Spain, and has 2.4 million speakers. It has no langcode, and a request for one was rejected in 2006, on the grounds that Valencian is simply a variety of Catalan. (SIL/Ethnologue still describes this as a dialect of Catalan.) Catalan Wikipedia apparently allows content in Valencian. Holding for one week for LangCom comments, but I propose to reject, while encouraging potential contributors to contribute to Catalan Wikipedia.
Wikipedia Prussian 2<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Prussi…> (prg): Prussian went extinct in the 18th century, but there are serious revival efforts underway, and apparently a first, new native speaker. Test has had some modest activity in recent months. I'm thinking we should mark as eligible, while noting that if and when it actually comes to a point of approval—it has fewer than 20 pages right now—we'd hope to see that the language revival is continuing outside WMF.
Wikipedia Khinalug<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Khinal…> (kjj): Endangered language of Northeast Caucasus with about 1,000 speakers. Test has about 100 pages. Eligible.
Wikipedia Romanized Khowar<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Romani…>: (1) There is no evidence that there is really a community needing this, particularly as a separate project. (Further, there's no evidence it couldn't be done by script converter.) (2) This is another project by RA Chitrali, whom we had trouble with on the original Khowar Wikipedia project not too long ago. Propose to reject. (On-wiki, I'm just going to use explanation 1 above. Explanation 2 is simply an additional reason to be skeptical.)
Steven
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
The fourth proposal on this list (Wikipedia Pinyin) has some serious policy-related questions. If you respond on nothing else, please provide an opinion on that one.
Wikipedia Simple Chinese<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple…> (zh-simple): I have a query out (in two places) to the original requestor, as well as to the Meta community, as to whether a true "simple" version really exists. However, no one has cited one on the request page over the last six years, and in any case per current policy this would incubate within Chinese Wikipedia. I'm going to give two more weeks to hear a response to that query. If the answer is "no", I will reject. If the answer is "yes", I think I would put on hold, pending some evidence that "simple" content is starting to be added to zhwiki. (And if zhwiki has a community discussion and decides it doesn't want to do this, then I will reject.) If this ends in rejection, I will encourage anyone truly interested to start at Incubator Plus.
Wikipedia Southern Ndebele<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_South_…> (nr): An official language of the Republic of South Africa, spoken by over 2 million speakers (L1 + L2). Test has about 20 pages, but was periodically active as late as 2016. Marking as eligible.
Wikipedia Kari Seediq<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Kari_S…> (trv): Aboriginal language of Taiwan with about 20,000 speakers. Test has well over 1,200 pages, and had a stretch of four months in late 2016–early 2017 when it had sufficient activity to be approvable. (There is no localization yet, however.) Marking as eligible.
Wikipedia Pinyin Chinese<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Chines…> (coded for now as cmn, Mandarin Chinese): Here's a proposal that I think needs some serious discussion. Please read the discussion on the linked Meta page.
Arguments against:
* No separate ISO 639-3 language code
* It is proposed that this can be handled with a script converter, per (for example) T193366<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193366>.
* One respondent objected to such a project taking manpower away from other Chinese-language projects.
Arguments supporting:
* Extremely widely used, and much on-line work in Chinese happens in Pinyin, not in ideographic characters.
* Proponents state (I cannot confirm) that there are many people who are "illiterate" in Chinese, not having mastered 3000 characters, who can potentially contribute to such a project. If so, that is closer to the ideal of creating projects that "anyone can edit".
I would also note that several other Chinese projects use Romanized Chinese. (All the min-nan projects are exclusively in Romanized language—see Wikipedia here<https://zh-min-nan.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A2u-ia%CC%8Dh>; Min Dong Wikipedia<https://cdo.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A0u_Hi%C4%95k> has pages in both scripts.)
If this project is deemed eligible, I'm pretty sure that it should not be coded with "cmn". (I can let it stay that way in Incubator for now, or give it a q-code.) Test has 250 mainspace pages, and has been active periodically. Last period of substantial activity was during summer 2017.
I am going to hold back my opinion on this just yet.
Wikipedia Mesopotamian Arabic<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Mesopo…> (acm): In principle, as eligible as any other variety of Arabic. Test has only two pages, both created in 2016. Placing on hold pending additional contributions.
Steven
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Based on a combination of the normal policy rules and what Phake Nick recently wrote us, it seems that we should probably reject this request, then. I will leave this open for seven days in case anyone has an objection to that.
Copying Phake Nick, with the following request: I think we should approach the current content in the following way: if you would be so kind, please flag any pages in the Incubator test that do not appear to have a directly corresponding page in zhwiki. (You can also flag pages that obviously include content that differs from the content on zhwiki.) Once this discussion closes, I will then feel comfortable deleting any page you have not flagged as copyvios. Then we'll get someone to ask at zhwiki's community portal to see if there is any content that project would like to transcribe and import, and give a couple of weeks for that. Then we'll delete the test on Incubator and archive the contents to .xml.
Steven
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Dear colleagues:
I am pleased to say that just about all of the RFL requests that were opened in 2012 or earlier have been addressed. There are only six exceptions, which I will summarize here:
* There are requests from 2010 for Wikipedia tests in Eastern Balochi and in the Balochi macrolanguage. Gerard marked a related request for Southern Balochi as "eligible" in 2008. And there is a related request for Western Balochi dating to 2014. I will address the issues associated with these in a different email, probably tomorrow.
* Wikipedia Simple French (from my August 7 message): This would be in français fondamental; this Committee has previously stated that a test in that defined version of Simple French would be allowable. The original requester has an RfC open on French Wikipedia asking the community to host the incubation. I think the RfC is going to pass. If it does, I will mark the request "eligible", and point contributors to a landing page on frwiki.
* If it doesn't, I'll come back to the Committee. My inclination in that case would be mark the project eligible, but recommend that the community do the Incubation on Incubator Plus (to be moved to Miraheze soon)—mainly so that we don't have to start explaining why that simple project is being allowed to open on Incubator, but others are not. I think a Simple French community would be amenable to that.
* Wikipedia Pinyin (from my July 30 message): The test running on Incubator (under the ISO 639-3 code for Mandarin) has about 250 pages. As I said in that message, there are arguments on both sides. Would people please look again at that and provide some input? You can do that on langcom-l if you prefer, of course.
* Wikipedia Prussian (from my July 16 message): Michael supported (or at least wanted to look further as to whether the revival was sufficiently robust to support the project). Gerard opposed. If people haven't responded in another week, I will probably mark "on hold" pending someone's determining whether the revival is sufficiently robust.
* Wikipedia Ottoman Turkish (from my August 7 message): Is there a robust enough literature to support this? Are there enough people who actually study and use this language (even in writing) to make it worthwhile. I don't think a script converter would do the job here, and Ottoman Turkish tends to borrow more heavily from Arabic and Persian than modern Turkish does. Thoughts?
Steven
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Michael, I understood you don't have time to check Prussian, and I apologize if I implied otherwise. Still, if you have a couple of minutes to articulate what you think a standard might be for this, then someone else might be able to look into it.
Steven
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Ladies and gentlemen, this needs to be addressed, probably on langcom-l (because it's a personnel discussion).
Steven
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________________________________
From: Langcom <langcom-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of langcom-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org <langcom-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 8:00 AM
To: langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Langcom Digest, Vol 59, Issue 8
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Today's Topics:
1. Request for membership [Tulsi Bhagat] (Tulsi Bhagat)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 15:09:31 +0545
From: Tulsi Bhagat <tulsibhagat50(a)gmail.com>
To: langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: [Langcom] Request for membership [Tulsi Bhagat]
Message-ID:
<CACU351GMkCXuQgVBHX_F2g2Es45r7YtmxuYbjjKggs_M8uy3EQ(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
*Hi there !*
I am Tulsi Bhagat <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Tulsi_Bhagat>, so
far youngest Wikipedian/Wikimedian from Nepal. I'm born on 15th of April
1999, real name is "Tulsi Kumar Bhagat". I've joined Wikimedia Projects on
1st of October 2014 creating my main, global & active volunteer account Tulsi
Bhagat <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Tulsi_Bhagat>. I
am a multi-linguist. Since, I've knowledge of Nepali language, Maithili
language, English, Hindi, Bhojpuri, Fiji Hindi, Doteli & Marwari where as
Nepali & Maithili is considered to be my native language.
I've joined Wikimedia Projects on 1st of October 2014 creating my main,
global & active volunteer account Tulsi Bhagat
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Tulsi_Bhagat>. Since
Oct. 2014, I'm actively involved with the projects and right now I'm
on-wiki administrator at Maithili & Nepali Wikipedia having 60,000+ global
edits. Moreover, I'm the first Featured Wikip(m)edian
<https://blog.wikimedia.org/2018/07/03/wikimedia-india-featured-wikimedians/>
from Nepal who has taken personal challenges i.e. 100WikiDays
<https://mai.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tulsi_Bhagat/100wikidays> and
7HumanRightsWikiDays
<https://ne.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tulsi_Bhagat/7HumanRightsWikiDays> and
successfully completed it.
Apart from Online activities, I am active at outreach activities too. I am
one of the representatives of Maithili Wikimedians User Group
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Maithili_Wikimedians_User_Group/Volunteers_…>
& Wikimedians of Nepal User Group
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Nepal/Members#Members>.
Also, I'm one of the organizing team member
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikicamp_Nepal_2018/Team> of
WCN2018 <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikicamp_Nepal_2018>. I have got
the opportunities to meet the Wikip(m)edians from all around the world at
major wiki events such as TTT2018
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CIS-A2K/Events/Train_the_Trainer_Program/20…>,
WikiConference India 2016
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_India_2016/Scholarships>,
WLM2016
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Maithili_Wikimedians_User_Group/Outreach/Wi…>
etc.
Additional, I've also been involved in motivating & collaborating with
peoples in the region to make 2 emerging Incubator projects: Awadhi and
Marwari to be online. In this way, my deep interest in Wikimedia Projects
and my contributions in it enforces me to be the part of Language committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee>. I've already studied
the relevant pages and documentations of it and I have been identified to
the Wikimedia Foundation
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?diff=18301502&oldid=18300613&diffonl…>.
Thanks for your consideration.
--
*Regards,*
*Tulsi*
*Administrator of Maithili & Nepali Wikipedia;*
*Volunteer | Maithili Wikimedians | Wikimedia Nepal;*
*Organizing Team Member | WikiCamp Nepal 2018;*
*+977-9805962061*
We'll miss your advice and counsel here. Good luck, and come back to us soon.
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 09:11:29 +0200
From: Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen(a)sil.org>
To: langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: [Langcom] Oliver's absence
Message-ID: <d8cad506-fec6-9ae7-82e9-f0ca67ab9dd0(a)sil.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Dear all,
just wanted to let you know that I'll be incommunicado from next week
into October. So don't expect any responses from me. Sorry!
Cheers,
Oliver
OWTB makes some good points.
* There needs to be a consultation with the Incubator admins, and then there needs to be at least one general community discussion. Concerning Incubator admins, three are here (MF-Warburg, Robin and me). Three others are at least reasonably active on Incubator (including OWTB, who is very active), another is responsive to specific requests, and two others haven't made an edit or had a logged event in over a year. Do we want that consultation to be on-wiki (public)? Or should we invite any/all of them to have temporary rights to this list, and discuss it semi-privately here first.
* I don't know if the community discussion should be on Incubator (and advertised at Meta [and Beta]), on Meta (and advertised on Incubator [and Beta]), or if there should be two. And when do we start it? Thoughts?
As far as substantive issues go, there are really two separate issues (or constituencies) that partially overlap that are being conflated here.
* I am strongly in favor of moving the strongest, most active test projects into incubation subdomains. I think that's a great idea. Giving those projects more complete functionality, especially access to WD, and getting rid of Incubator peculiarities like prefixes, is all certainly worthwhile for them. None of the downsides I'm going to point out below really apply to them. So if we can manage an admin interface that continues to let us help them manage spam, bots, etc., and if there are no more than about 20 of them, I think this would be fantastic.
The other issue (which OWTB doesn't mention) is the creation of brand new test projects. The idea is to make it easier for new test wikis, to give them all of the associated functionality that full projects have, and that without all of Incubator's peculiarities. And in principle, that's a great idea. Still, I think there are also a lot of potential problems with this.
* How do we decide what constitutes a serious enough request to press the button? For "subsequent projects in existing languages", it would be easy enough to require some activity history in the existing wiki(s). But for new languages, how do you do that? Yes, deciding the language is "eligible" is a necessary condition. But sufficient?
* Even now, there continue to be LTA's coming and creating new requests that are effectively spurious. They're valid on their face—language is eligible—but requesters don't speak the language, and no community exists. (It happens less now that I am patrolling there, but it still happens.) For now, at minimum we wait until there are people around who create some content before saying, "eligible". That at least demonstrates that a couple of people are present and actually creating content that appears to be in the right language.
* I am extremely worried that this will turn into the "bad old days", where just about anyone could create a project, and many fell into disuse (and/or were never serious). Do we want "The Wild West" again?
* Yet the idea of making things easier for outright newbies is a very worthwhile one.
I think many of these things have to be discussed, by us and by the Incubator admins, and then by the community, before pulling the trigger for anything except moving the largest, most active wikis. (Even that should also be discussed, of course, but that is likely to be more straightforward.)
In the meanwhile, I think there are three things that we can do right now to see if we can alleviate some of the current editing issues on Incubator right now:
1. Turn on the "Add Prefix" gadget by default. It doesn't make all the prefix-related problems go away, but it simplifies them quite a lot. Just about everyone except sysops (and similar people who do a lot of maintenance) ought to have this on. [I can open a discussion on Incubator about this today, and trigger it in seven days unless there are objections.]
2. Use the authority of LangCom to set a priority to get some kind of access to Wikidata turned on right away. I think a lot of what is holding that up is the challenge of multiple iw links from Incubator. So let's simply not allow/demand/require that for now. Most of the capability currently exists somewhere within the WMF world to allow Incubator's pages (a) to call information from Wikidata into things like infoboxes, and even (b) to produce an iw list to appear on our pages. Much of that capability includes the possibility of calling information from Qxxx even when the page you're editing is associated with Qyyy; all you have to do is add "|q=xxx" as a parameter. So we simply require such a parameter. Access to WD would help a lot.
3. Less important, but useful: Finish fixing some of the problems with Incubator extension (like the default info pages and especially their links to Wikipedia projects).
We can see how much some of these things help while we start practicing on the less controversial, bigger test projects. And then we can decide where to go.
Steven
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