I'm non-voting, of course, so I'm not going to offer an opinion, per se. But, Gideon, I keep hearing "in Berlin". Whom did you speak to in Berlin? LangCom people? Board members? If it was board members, then we might actually need some guidance as to what the board was thinking, and as to what they might like us to do about this.
Steven
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Kaya Folks
We have completed all the tasks asked of us in berlin and continue to
expand the translations and the article content. As I see it we are ready
to go,
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Nyungar
--
Gideon Digby
Vice President - Wikimedia Australia
M: 0434 986 852
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Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation which
supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. Your
donations keep the Wikimedia mission alive.
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OK. I'm assuming that (a) the concept of closing stale requests as I've proposed is generally acceptable, and (b) that at least in the cases other than Teochew I can proceed.
With respect to Teochew, I'm going to mark it as "on hold/waiting", pending a language code. But if we don't see a new request at SIL in a year, then I'm going to close. Please let me know if that is acceptable.
There are, in fact, a couple of other requests from 2010 still open. There are two requests on different Balochi projects, which I thought should wait until Satdeep finished his investigations into that. There is a request for "Southern Min in Hanji," which I intended to leave sitting until we had a discussion of when different scripts need different projects and when not. But apparently phabricator T165882<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165882> says that the community has agreed to a namespace for Hanji, so this can be closed as resolved. There is a request for Wiktionary Pitcairnese<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wiktionary_Pitca…> that can be closed as stale along the same lines as the others here. And there is a request for Wikipedia Chinuk wawa that is supported by a few pages in the Incubator, so I'm going to mark it eligible.
Steven
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2. Re: Final group of projects with requests lingering since
2010 (MF-Warburg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 09:53:21 +0800
From: Phake Nick <c933103(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Final group of projects with requests lingering
since 2010
Message-ID:
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2018年1月25日 03:49 於 "MF-Warburg" <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> 寫道：
>
> Well, but it's equally true (and written) that "If there is no valid ISO
639 code, you must obtain one. The Wikimedia Foundation does not seek to
develop new linguistic entities".
My understanding on the description of "does not seek to develop new
linguistic entities" is that WMF does not seek to develop new language and
thus it would like confirmation from ISO standard regulation body, instead
of the code itself.
> We do absolutely not want to invent our own codes, because that gets
really messy, especially when at some point a language does get a real code.
Why not tentatively use e.g. ISO639-6 code as a working code in incubator
or for the project before it could get a 639-1/2/3 code? after it get a
code in ISO 639-1/2/3 then it should be possible to move things over.
Although all the code change requests have been piled up for years in
phabricator but that should hopefully be sorted out one day.
So here's what has to happen next:
* Someone at translatewiki.net should activate the code. (Calling Amir ...)
* The community can start working on a Wikipedia project on Incubator at Wp/hyw. Remember: the rules at Incubator are less strict than the rules for a final approval. In most cases of living, natural languages, as long as there is a valid code, a project may remain on Incubator, even without a LangCom approval. So gather a community together and start working on something. Do we need to set up Armenian Wikipedia as a transwiki import SOURCE to Incubator so that articles can be brought over more easily? (MF-W?)
* A "Request for new languages" is not necessary right away, and tends to bring out the worst in everyone's politics. Let the community work for a little while on Incubator before coming to Meta with a formal request.
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw" (Oliver Stegen)
2. Re: Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw" (Amir E. Aharoni)
3. Re: Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw" (Michael Everson)
4. Re: 2018 SIL approvals (was: Western Armenian has been
adopted "hyw") (Michael Everson)
5. Re: Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw" (Michael Everson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 13:39:20 +0100
From: Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen(a)sil.org>
To: langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw"
Message-ID: <fe2adfa1-bb2b-63d9-3a94-df602d709e6a(a)sil.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Congratulations, Michael and the entire Western Armenian community (or
rather communities!). And thanks for all the effort you put into this!
Cheers,
Oliver
On 30-Jan-18 23:22, Michael Everson wrote:
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 14:56:13 +0200
From: "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw"
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So... This raises several questions.
1. Should this language be added to translatewiki.net? This was requested
some time ago: https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftranslate…
support_for_Western_Armenian_(hym) . This means that it will be possible to
translate MediaWiki into it.
2. I couldn't find a request for a Western Armenian Wikipedia, which is
somewhat surprising :) . The closest thing I can find is
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wiki…
languages/Wikipedia_Homshetsma , which is not the same thing. In any case,
whenever such a request is made, will it be eligible?
I am inclined to answer "yes" to both questions, but with a caveat. I know
very little about the Armenian language. My support is based mainly on
Michael's conclusions of the examination of the differences between Eastern
and Western varieties. However, the documents linked from the first email
in this thread mention the similarity of the situation with Montengrin,
which the committee seems not to support.
If we reject Montenegrin, but support Western Armenian, we'll have to
explain it.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faharoni.wo…
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2018-01-31 14:39 GMT+02:00 Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen(a)sil.org>:
> Congratulations, Michael and the entire Western Armenian community (or
> rather communities!). And thanks for all the effort you put into this!
>
> Cheers,
> Oliver
>
>
>
> On 30-Jan-18 23:22, Michael Everson wrote:
>
>> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww-01.sil…
>> _2017_Summary.pdf
>>
>> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww-01.sil…
>> ents_2017-023.pdf
>>
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>
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 15:04:18 +0000
From: Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw"
Message-ID: <4E46FAE6-3170-4239-8A41-8FD3821F181A(a)evertype.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On 31 Jan 2018, at 12:39, Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen(a)sil.org> wrote:
>
> Congratulations, Michael and the entire Western Armenian community (or rather communities!). And thanks for all the effort you put into this!
It was quite a lot of effort, producing the proposal document.
Now let’s get this one going. What do they have to do now?
Michael
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 15:03:20 +0000
From: Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] 2018 SIL approvals (was: Western Armenian has
been adopted "hyw")
Message-ID: <3523D00A-EF1C-4F37-B39B-8D1645ADB541(a)evertype.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Gerard. 639-2 is a subset of 639-3
> On 31 Jan 2018, at 09:57, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> Wait a sec; Montenegrin is to be recognised by the ISO 639-3. I do not care for what ISO 639-2 has to say.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 31 January 2018 at 10:47, Steven White <Koala19890(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> In fact, the entire 2017 SIL approval/rejection results are available here. (Montenegrin does not appear here, as that was a separate process through ISO 639-2.)
>
> Sent from Outlook
>
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 15:18:52 +0000
From: Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw"
Message-ID: <7A799968-3FE4-4B06-B5C7-C1878C3DB8B6(a)evertype.com>
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On 31 Jan 2018, at 12:56, Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
> So... This raises several questions.
Really?
> 1. Should this language be added to translatewiki.net? This was requested some time ago: https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftranslate… . This means that it will be possible to translate MediaWiki into it.
Yes, certainly it should.
> 2. I couldn't find a request for a Western Armenian Wikipedia, which is somewhat surprising :) . The closest thing I can find is https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wiki… , which is not the same thing. In any case, whenever such a request is made, will it be eligible?
It will be eligible. There are some articles in the current Armenian Wikipedia that are marked as written in Western Armenian, and I would be expecting them to be migrated.
Homshetsi is evidently a dialect of Western Armenian with fewer than 1000 speakers. I do not know anything more about it. It has no ISO code.
> I am inclined to answer "yes" to both questions, but with a caveat. I know very little about the Armenian language. My support is based mainly on Michael's conclusions of the examination of the differences between Eastern and Western varieties.
We showed lists and paradigms showing the linguistic differences.
> However, the documents linked from the first email in this thread mention the similarity of the situation with Montengrin, which the committee seems not to support.
I don’t support it because it does not appear that Montenegrin differs from Serbian in any significant way.
> If we reject Montenegrin, but support Western Armenian, we'll have to explain it.
Absolutely we do not have to do this. There is no dependency between them. None. And Western Armenian is HUGELY different from Eastern Armenian. Please study the attached which was part of our proposal for the language code.
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As long as there is some activity continuing around Southern Min, I'll leave it open. Understand that if it is closed as stale, that closure would be without prejudice against a future request when things are squared away. So don't worry too much about it.
Steven
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1. Re: Final group of projects with requests lingering since
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2. Re: Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw" (C. Scott Ananian)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 00:54:47 +0800
From: Phake Nick <c933103(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Final group of projects with requests lingering
since 2010
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One thing to consider:
- In the previous code application, Hainanese was mentioned as a thing to
consider about before splitting out Teochew. There are currently request
for a code for Hainanese which will probably take some times to handle, and
I would not expect request for Teochew to surface before that one get
created
2018年1月29日 18:26 於 "Steven White" <Koala19890(a)hotmail.com> 寫道：
> OK. I'm assuming that (a) the concept of closing stale requests as I've
> proposed is generally acceptable, and (b) that at least in the cases other
> than Teochew I can proceed.
>
>
> With respect to Teochew, I'm going to mark it as "on hold/waiting",
> pending a language code. But if we don't see a new request at SIL in a
> year, then I'm going to close. Please let me know if that is acceptable.
>
>
> There are, in fact, a couple of other requests from 2010 still open. There
> are two requests on different Balochi projects, which I thought should wait
> until Satdeep finished his investigations into that. There is a request for
> "Southern Min in Hanji," which I intended to leave sitting until we had a
> discussion of when different scripts need different projects and when not.
> But apparently phabricator T165882
> <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphabricat…> says that the community has
> agreed to a namespace for Hanji, so this can be closed as resolved. There
> is a request for Wiktionary Pitcairnese
> <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wiki…>
> that can be closed as stale along the same lines as the others here. And
> there is a request for Wikipedia Chinuk wawa that is supported by a few
> pages in the Incubator, so I'm going to mark it eligible.
>
>
> Steven
>
>
> Sent from Outlook <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fw…>
>
>
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> 2. Re: Final group of projects with requests lingering since
> 2010 (MF-Warburg)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 09:53:21 +0800
> From: Phake Nick <c933103(a)gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
> <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Langcom] Final group of projects with requests lingering
> since 2010
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> 2018年1月25日 03:49 於 "MF-Warburg" <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> 寫道：
> >
> > Well, but it's equally true (and written) that "If there is no valid ISO
> 639 code, you must obtain one. The Wikimedia Foundation does not seek to
> develop new linguistic entities".
>
> My understanding on the description of "does not seek to develop new
> linguistic entities" is that WMF does not seek to develop new language and
> thus it would like confirmation from ISO standard regulation body, instead
> of the code itself.
>
> > We do absolutely not want to invent our own codes, because that gets
> really messy, especially when at some point a language does get a real
> code.
>
> Why not tentatively use e.g. ISO639-6 code as a working code in incubator
> or for the project before it could get a 639-1/2/3 code? after it get a
> code in ISO 639-1/2/3 then it should be possible to move things over.
> Although all the code change requests have been piled up for years in
> phabricator but that should hopefully be sorted out one day.
>
No, Gerard. What I meant was that Montenegrin wasn't listed in the 2017 SIL approval process because it came to SIL through the ISO 639-2 process, not through a standard ISO 639-3 change request. But SIL most definitely has approved the code as an ISO 639-3. See http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=cnr.
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Istriot<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Istriot>: Currently on hold. There are a few pages on Incubator, but nothing added in several years. Propose to reject as stale, without prejudice for a new request if a community comes back to work on a project.
Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Teochew<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Teochew>: Currently on hold due to no ISO code. Code was rejected at SIL in 2009. At the time, SIL expressed some sympathy for the idea of retiring "nan" and splitting it. But as the code request did not cover the full breadth of "nan", the request was rejected. There has been no recurrent request, to the best of my knowledge. Suggest reject per policy, with an invitation to create a new request if a code is ever created.
Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Unserdeutsch 2<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Unserd…>: About 100 L1 speakers left, mostly living in Australia. No test project, and no evidence of native speakers. If this were a new request, I'd probably mark as "on hold". As it is, we should probably reject as stale, without prejudice for a new request if a community comes back to work on a project.
Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Pandan Bikol (Northern Catanduanes Bikol)<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Pandan…>: About 78,000 speakers. No evidence of any native speakers present since request was made. Also member of a macrolanguage (Bikol): bik. Within macrolanguage, existing Wikipedia for Central Bikol (bcl), fairly developed test projects for Miraya Bikol (Wp/rbl) and Rinconada Bikol (Wp/bto), though no substantive additions since 2015. This language's test has a single page that might not even be in the language. Should probably reject this as stale, without prejudice for a new request.
Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Simple Hebrew<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple…>: Reject: (a) If a project like this is ever to exist, current policy is that it must incubate at the corresponding project, in this case Hebrew Wikipedia. (b) If such an incubation wants to get out of the base project, that can only happen if the project (or namespace) uses an externally defined simple version of the language, and I'm not aware that one even exists in Hebrew.
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
* With respect to Western Armenian and Homshetsma, Oliver is entirely correct. By all means get an RFL in place for Western Armenian. But that is a different issue from Homshetsma.
* With respect to "close as stale" vs. "waiting/on hold": I think there is a misunderstanding here from some people:
* We're not suggesting doing anything to Incubator at all. We're not deleting test projects there that are stale. (See WP:NOTPAPER.)
* With respect to "Requests for new languages", once a project is eligible, it is eligible. We're not changing that, either.
* The ONLY thing being suggested is this: Where a "Request[] for new languages" was NEVER marked eligible, then if there has not been any follow-up by fluent speakers (for example, by creating an Incubator test), we will mark the request as "close as stale".
* Any/all such requests are either marked as "waiting/on hold" or were never changed from "discussion/open". All of these tests should have been marked as "waiting/on hold', except that nobody ever got around to doing that. And so in all the cases I am suggesting, we have waited 7+ years, and native (fluent) speakers never showed up. So I want to remove those from the request queue, clearly inviting anyone new to start fresh with a new request.
* I have recently marked a couple of requests like this as eligible, because speakers did show up.
I hope that clarifies things.
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
________________________________
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Four more Wikipedia requests dating to the summer of 2010
(Oliver Stegen)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:54:47 +0100
From: Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen(a)sil.org>
To: langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Four more Wikipedia requests dating to the
summer of 2010
Message-ID: <93b7faca-bbd9-e7f2-40fc-0cc2422ab34d(a)sil.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
Scott,
we're aware of the ISO code proposal for Western Armenian. Actually, one
of our committee (Michael Everson) elicited the data at WMCon Berlin
2017 and wrote and submitted the proposal to the ISO committee. However,
that's Western Armenian and not Homshetsma. Hence, I understand it to be
right to reject the current proposal and then to open a new proposal for
all of Western Armenian.
Best wishes,
Oliver
On 22-Jan-18 17:05, C. Scott Ananian wrote:
> Sorry I'm late to the conversation, but I did get a request from the
> Armenian Wikimedia community at Wikimania 2016 specifically to assist
> with the assignment of an ISO code for Western Armenian. Closing the
> proposal may be the right thing to do at this point, but it is a bit
> of a chicken and egg issue wrt ISO codes. I believe there is
> significant community interest within the Armenian community if we
> could break this logjam.
> --scott
>
> On Jan 22, 2018 6:37 AM, "Steven White" <koala19890(a)hotmail.com
> <mailto:koala19890@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Having heard no comments on the proposals with respect to Egyptian
> and Homshetsma over the last seven days, I will close both as
> rejected, as described in my original message.
>
> Sent from Outlook <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fw…>
>
>
Having heard no comments on the proposals with respect to Egyptian and Homshetsma over the last seven days, I will close both as rejected, as described in my original message.
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
________________________________
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Montenegrin project (Steven White)
2. Four more Wikipedia requests dating to the summer of 2010
(Steven White)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:35:23 +0000
From: Steven White <Koala19890(a)hotmail.com>
To: "langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org" <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Montenegrin project
Message-ID:
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Amir: Someone has written a response to your email to LangCom at the bottom of the discussion page on Meta.
Gerard: You don't get asked all that often here to spend a lot of time on an involved, complicated decision. If I thought I could easily digest it and feed it to you I would. But I don't. I'm not asking you for a lot of time; rather, the community you serve needs you to spend the appropriate amount of time to see the latest evidence and decide what you think.
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Mostly, it has to do with the action date. I don't think it makes WMF or LangCom look very good to have dozens of projects that appear to have been pending for over five years, especially when the requester is someone who showed up for a day, or a couple of weeks, and then has disappeared. I think it's much better to make sure the requests that are pending are current ones.
My intention, once I get to requests that are no more than a couple of years old, is to allow projects to remain "on hold" for 1–2 years, and only after that closing them. I'm figuring that if no one shows up in two years, we ought to move on.
Finally, I do intend to make clear on such pages that a future request would be welcomed if a community (re-)appears in the future.
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Four more Wikipedia requests dating to the summer of 2010
(Steven White)
2. Final group of projects with requests lingering since 2010
(Steven White)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:37:24 +0000
From: Steven White <koala19890(a)hotmail.com>
To: "langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org" <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Four more Wikipedia requests dating to the
summer of 2010
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Having heard no comments on the proposals with respect to Egyptian and Homshetsma over the last seven days, I will close both as rejected, as described in my original message.
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Montenegrin project (Steven White)
2. Four more Wikipedia requests dating to the summer of 2010
(Steven White)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:35:23 +0000
From: Steven White <Koala19890(a)hotmail.com>
To: "langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org" <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Montenegrin project
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Amir: Someone has written a response to your email to LangCom at the bottom of the discussion page on Meta.
Gerard: You don't get asked all that often here to spend a lot of time on an involved, complicated decision. If I thought I could easily digest it and feed it to you I would. But I don't. I'm not asking you for a lot of time; rather, the community you serve needs you to spend the appropriate amount of time to see the latest evidence and decide what you think.
Sent from Outlook<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fw…>
Here are four more requests dating back to 2010 that I'd like to dispose of:
Wikipedia Egyptian (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Egypti…): Propose to reject. SIL marks as an ancient language; it's a predecessor of Coptic. Writing is hieroglyphics. There is no test project underway at Incubator, and the original proposer has not been active in over five years.
Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Nigerian Pidgin (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Nigeri…): Marking as eligible. Ethnologue gives a figure (dating to 2005) of 30 million speakers; though not all are native, it's a widely used pidgin. Ethnologue says there isn't really a written standard, but as of 2016 there is a BBC service in the pidgin, so we can probably steer people in that direction to some extent.
Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Pipil (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Pipil): Marking as eligible. Central American language classified by Glottolog as an Eastern Nahuatl language. Pipil is near extinction, and test project hasn't been all that active recently. But there's a decent amount of content there, and if it's valid content, then this is probably a project that should be encouraged. No objections were noted on the RFL page.
Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Homshetsma (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Homshe…): Propose to reject. See http://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/homs1234: Western Armenian dialect not fully intelligible with Armenian. It has no ISO code, and a small number of L1 speakers. The proposal dates to the (northern hemisphere) summer of 2010, and there has been no material discussion there since then. If it ever gets a code, we could revisit; if Western Armenian gets a code, it could possibly be included there.
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
Amir: Someone has written a response to your email to LangCom at the bottom of the discussion page on Meta.
Gerard: You don't get asked all that often here to spend a lot of time on an involved, complicated decision. If I thought I could easily digest it and feed it to you I would. But I don't. I'm not asking you for a lot of time; rather, the community you serve needs you to spend the appropriate amount of time to see the latest evidence and decide what you think.
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
I want to bring to the committee’s attention that an enormous amount has been written at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Monten…, as well as its talk page. You owe it to the community to review what has been written there. Most (though not all) of what has been written has been about the questions (a) how unique is Montenegrin within the Serbo-Croatian language, and (b) how welcome do Montenegrins feel to participate in the existing projects. Thank you for your active involvement.
Steven
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
Hoi,
At the time when the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia was created, there was a lot
of blowback because "there is only one Arabic". There is not, it is why
these are considered languages by linguists and not dialects.
In my personal opinion, all the Arabic languages may have their Wikipedia,
they may certainly have recognition in Wikidata.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 13 January 2018 at 22:09, abdelwaheb turki <turkiabdelwaheb(a)hotmail.fr>
wrote:
> Dear Mr.,
> I thank you for your answer. All the Arabic dialects are not supported by
> MediaWiki but Egyptian Arabic (arz), Tunisian Arabic (aeb-arab), Algerian
> Arabic (arq), and Moroccan Arabic (ary).
> Yours Sincerely,
> Houcemeddine Turki
> ------------------------------
> *De :* Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki(a)gmail.com>
> *Envoyé :* samedi 13 janvier 2018 13:18:19
> *À :* Discussion list for the Wikidata project.; abdelwaheb turki
> *Objet :* Re: [Wikidata] About the support of Arabic dialects by Wikidata
>
> How many of those are supported by MediaWiki? Can you help find
> translators for the missing ones?
> <https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translatewiki.net_languages>
>
> Federico
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikidata mailing list
> Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>
>
Dear Language Comittee,
I am Martin Urbanec at Wikipedia and in real-life and Urbanecm at IRC or
Phabricator. I am writing to you regarding Wikivoyage Pashto. Creation of
this project was requested by your fellow clerk StevenJ81 by mistake and it
was very soon to mark that request as approved.
As two other wikis are pending creation and it is much more easier to
create multiple wikis at once rather than one or two I want to know the
following: should the other pending wikis (T183561 and T184374) wait
until T183706 is restored or should they be processed sooner because it
will take some time till LangCom will approve T183706.
Thank you for your time and reply.
Yours sincerely,
Martin Urbanec
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/p/Urbanecm
Dear colleagues:
I must admit that I have been quite surprised as to how unanimous the committee's opinion has been toward rejecting Montenegrin. At this point, though, with the ISO 639-3 code now fully approved, I think you are in error in failing to acknowledge Montenegrin as "eligible". I may not have a vote here, but I am going to push back on this question.
The committee is basing its position on item #3 of the "Requisites for eligibility": "The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language." The explanation goes on to give the reason: "The degree of difference required is considered on a case-by-case basis. The committee does not consider political differences, since the Wikimedia Foundation's goal is to give every single person free, unbiased access to the sum of all human knowledge, rather than information from the viewpoint of individual political communities."
It seems to me that there are two reasons for this rule. One is to focus contributor efforts so as to encourage the creation of meaningful projects without a dilution of effort into lots of small, incomplete, less useful, possibly conflicting projects. The second is to try to keep all meaningful projects operating on a politically neutral basis. But I've got news for you: on both grounds, the horse is already out of the barn.
In terms of effort, we already have four wikis running in this language: shwiki, srwiki, hrwiki, bswiki. The effort is already diluted, if you will. But one more is not going to change the dilution factor much—especially given that many of the people who want to contribute to the Montenegrin project are not interested in touching the other projects anyway.
The reason for that is the second point: politics. The current projects already exist, and are already based in "individual political communities", whether you like that or not. So by rejecting Montenegrin, you are forcing people into projects that already operate under the viewpoint of "individual political communities", and (sometimes) hostile ones at that. There is plenty of evidence offered at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Monten… that the other wikis have not been fully open to Montenegrin political points of view. And even linguistically there is a tilt against Montenegrin. Serbian Wikipedia, for example, is only about 5% Ijekavian, about 90% Ekavian, and the rest a hodgepodge. I don't know if the hostility to a more inclusive community was more in the past, or if it is more in the present, or both. But at this point there is a history that many of the Montenegrin language advocates are not willing to touch.
"The committee does not consider political differences[.]" Good luck. It's political whichever way it goes. The only real way for the committee to stay apolitical is to follow ISO 639-3 down the line, at least where languages are "individual" and "living". I don't necessarily think LangCom must do that, but understand that all such deviations from ISO 639-3 are political to some extent. Until now, LangCom could deny Montenegrin by falling back on the SIL/Ethnologue position that Montenegrin was "another name for Serbo-Croatian". Still, starting now, it's a more political act to reject Montenegrin than to accept it. Maybe the Montenegrin community's "win" at the ISO 639 committee was more political than linguistic. Still, that's the ISO committee's problem, not ours. At this point, the formal world standard for languages recognizes Montenegrin as a separate language within the macrolanguage hbs/sh, and we should, too.
Finally, going back to effort: The test wiki, which I opened on December 12 (after the ISO -2 code was published, on the assumption that the ISO -3 code would be automatic), has over 40 contributors and over 350 main space pages. It's the most active test in Incubator right now. We've got a group of people excited about this project and working hard to make it a reality. Why would we want to discourage that?
I think this committee well understands that only 20–50 or so of the existing Wikipedias really serve the core purpose of being encyclopedic resources widely available to a broad community of users. There are others "in between", but most of the rest are small projects that mostly serve local language/culture communities. This project will be no worse that that, and better than many in that regard.
I wouldn't feel this way if there were still a single "Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia". But there's not. So at this point, it's time to move on, and to allow the Montenegrin language community to build its project.
Steven
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
Truthfully, I'm not, either. But the "problem", if you will, is that they have five consecutive months of sufficient activity, they've added to the interface translation, and at least a decent fraction of pages have real content. In short, they've done everything we ask according to the rules as written. They feel they've earned this approval. So as things stand now, it feels to them like we're just being arbitrary; they have no idea what they're working toward. And I don't really want to lose them over what looks to be an arbitrary decision on our part.
To this point, I told them that I'd come back to LangCom when there are 200 main space pages, but even at that I don't know if you think that's "enough". For the record, as of today, the smallest Wikivoyage other than Hindi is Ukrainian, with 638 pages. So maybe half of that (~300) is a reasonable target.
Steven
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________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 22:10:08 +0100
From: MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Pashto Wikivoyage
Message-ID:
<CAJKMOMVQrQ-gQsY8DFd0tbtkyHZmKvApyDarPW9R2s9irYLt+w(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I am not really a fan of that. To me the most important thing is continuous
activity.
2017-12-28 4:02 GMT+01:00 Steven White <Koala19890(a)hotmail.com>:
> MF-W (or anyone else): Can I provide the Pashto Wikivoyage community
> with a target? Remember: there is no "minimum project size" formally stated
> in the policy. And that community has done absolutely everything we have
> asked of it.
>
>
> Steven
>
>
> Sent from Outlook <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fw…>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Langcom mailing list
> Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wik…
>
>
One week has passed, and two members spoke in favor, with one opposed. This project is therefore approved.
Steven
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
There were no objections in the last seven days, so after all these years, this project is approved. I'll take care of getting things rolling later today.
Steven
Sent from my iPad
Look, any way you cut it, Alemannic is just different. SIL lists it as "Individual", not as a "Macrolanguage". But the code ("gsw", of course, not "als") is listed for Alemannic (equivalent to its ISO 639-2 definition), but also "Alsatian" and "Swiss German". Enwiki article describes it as a "dialect continuum". And Swabian is considered to be a language/dialect within Alemannic, which is sort of also acting a bit like a macrolanguage. Sheesh.
In any event, it's actually been six years since anyone commented on the Swabian RFL. (There have been some housekeeping edits since, but no substantive ones.) So this RFL does not represent an attempt by anyone currently contributing in Swabian at alswiki to break off Swabian to do its own thing. If anyone ever creates an RFL along those lines, we can address it at that point. But at present there's no reason not to go ahead and close the current RFL.
Steven
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I promised I was going to keep old project requests moving along after the new year. So here are four:
Wikipedia Swabian<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Swabian>: Propose to reject. Although it has a language code, Swabian is already included within Alemannic Wikipedia. Starting initial seven-day clock on this now.
Wikipedia Manchu<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Manchu…> (on hold since March 2010, waiting for native speakers): Marking eligible. This project has been fairly active on Incubator recently, and the tool to allow the vertical Manchu script is working very nicely.
Wikipedia Kutchi<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Kutchi>: Marking eligible. Has a language code, and about 875,000 speakers in India and Pakistan.
Wikipedia Kumaoni<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Kumaoni>: Marking as "on hold". In principle, should be eligible. But there is no test project on Incubator, and most speakers are bilingual in Hindi. (It's not that these are mutually intelligible languages, just that Hindi is a lingua franca in the area.) So I'd like to place this on hold until someone comes who is interested in starting the project.
Steven
Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
Well, there was a discussion starting about December 3, 2016 that MF-Warburg started. Milos and Gerard responded favorably (providing language check was positive). Amir was concerned the test might have been too stubby. There were no other comments, and there’s been nothing since (except for discussion about the lack of response of a language expert).
The test has been running on Incubator for nearly 11 years. It’s probably still a little on the stubby side, in my view. But it’s remained active all year while awaiting “language confirmation”, all the interface translation is done, and it’s got a lot of pages. And they’ve clearly cleaned up the quality of the language. So here’s my suggestion:
* Let’s open a new discussion week here, just for transparency.
* I’d suggest (but of course can’t demand) not letting “stubbiness” get in the way at this point. When I inform them of approval, I’ll certainly strongly encourage them to build up the pages they already have going forward. The community has been active, and its members have been really patient in continuing to work on for all these years. I think they deserve our recognition and support at this point.
Steven
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