Video Q&A discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases - Gendergap

Jane Darnell

13 Oct 13 Oct

7:57 p.m.

New subject: Video Q&A discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases

Yes, that was an interesting Q&A - I was familiar with most of the material discussed in the talk (and a lot of it has been discussed here before), but I was surprised by the emotional response afterwards and the number of comments/questions. On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Links: 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-Y-FuzAH4&t=85m30s 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Comments… Folks may be interested in watching the Q&A session at the recent WikiConference USA where gender and harassment was discussed for about 45 minutes.[1] It makes for an interesting summary of how Arbcom is perceived with regard to handling harassment cases, and the types of harassment of significant concern for our community. This has been raised on the Arbcom noticeboard[2], it will be interesting to see how many current Arbcom members make a public comment, or indeed if they are perfectly happy with the way Arbcom currently works, or not. Fae -- faewik(a)gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

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Neotarf

19 Oct 19 Oct

8:42 p.m.

New subject: Video Q&A discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases

I have posted a transcript of the Q&A portion: https://neotarf.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/danielle-citrons-wikicon-online-ha… and added links to the documents referenced. @Fae thanks for the link, I didn't know you could link to a specific point in a video @J Hayes "cultural buzzsaw" tweet? On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:08 PM, J Hayes <slowking4(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

yes, nice for arbcom to see how they are perceived and Andrew Lih mentioned the "cultural buzzsaw" tweet for importance of fixing culture as one of the things wikipedia must do. this was for an audience of the US powers that be; it will be interesting to see the impact on future conduct. On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jane Darnell <jane023(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, that was an interesting Q&A - I was familiar with most of the material discussed in the talk (and a lot of it has been discussed here before), but I was surprised by the emotional response afterwards and the number of comments/questions. On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Links: 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-Y-FuzAH4&t=85m30s 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Comments… Folks may be interested in watching the Q&A session at the recent WikiConference USA where gender and harassment was discussed for about 45 minutes.[1] It makes for an interesting summary of how Arbcom is perceived with regard to handling harassment cases, and the types of harassment of significant concern for our community. This has been raised on the Arbcom noticeboard[2], it will be interesting to see how many current Arbcom members make a public comment, or indeed if they are perfectly happy with the way Arbcom currently works, or not. Fae -- faewik(a)gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

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Neotarf

11:02 p.m.

New subject: Video Q&A discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases

"...now pitching the idea that ARL libraries take over editing chunks of Wikipedia..." It does sound like a remake of Bambi Meets Godzilla. Wonder how that would go over in Canada--looks like they have a number of ARL libraries http://www.arl.org/membership#.ViU1omtAeKI Sounds like the kind of thing LAC might regards as a “high risk” activity. http://o.canada.com/news/national/federal-librarians-fear-being-muzzled-und… And there is already an old code of conduct that mentions diversity and harassment. http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/about-us/Pages/code-conduct-value-ethics.aspx#h On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:52 PM, J Hayes <slowking4(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

right, here's the tweet from an audience member at a ARL conference https://twitter.com/LibSkrat/status/651786423138430976 it is quoted on one of fuzheado's slides. On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Neotarf <neotarf(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I have posted a transcript of the Q&A portion: https://neotarf.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/danielle-citrons-wikicon-online-ha… and added links to the documents referenced. @Fae thanks for the link, I didn't know you could link to a specific point in a video @J Hayes "cultural buzzsaw" tweet? On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:08 PM, J Hayes <slowking4(a)gmail.com> wrote:

yes, nice for arbcom to see how they are perceived and Andrew Lih mentioned the "cultural buzzsaw" tweet for importance of fixing culture as one of the things wikipedia must do. this was for an audience of the US powers that be; it will be interesting to see the impact on future conduct. On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jane Darnell <jane023(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, that was an interesting Q&A - I was familiar with most of the material discussed in the talk (and a lot of it has been discussed here before), but I was surprised by the emotional response afterwards and the number of comments/questions. On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Links: > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-Y-FuzAH4&t=85m30s > 2. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Comments… > > Folks may be interested in watching the Q&A session at the recent > WikiConference USA where gender and harassment was discussed for about > 45 minutes.[1] It makes for an interesting summary of how Arbcom is > perceived with regard to handling harassment cases, and the types of > harassment of significant concern for our community. > > This has been raised on the Arbcom noticeboard[2], it will be > interesting to see how many current Arbcom members make a public > comment, or indeed if they are perfectly happy with the way Arbcom > currently works, or not. > > Fae > -- > faewik(a)gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org > To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, > please visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

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Rob

4:08 a.m.

New subject: Video Q&A discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases

Card-carrying librarian here. Can someone let me in on our takeover plans? Email me. Thanks. On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 5:49 PM, J Hayes <slowking4(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

yes, lambs to the slaughter echoing andrew lih, i have been to a few wiki loves libraries and all the librarians are aware of the toxic culture but the militant ones are biding their time for the takeover. i was questioning DGG about some librarian ethics but he dismissed them. also about the "political moment" response we need to start recruiting candidates for arbcom now. i asked Rosiestep <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rosiestep> , but she demurred can't say i blame her. On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Neotarf <neotarf(a)gmail.com> wrote:

"...now pitching the idea that ARL libraries take over editing chunks of Wikipedia..." It does sound like a remake of Bambi Meets Godzilla. Wonder how that would go over in Canada--looks like they have a number of ARL libraries http://www.arl.org/membership#.ViU1omtAeKI Sounds like the kind of thing LAC might regards as a “high risk” activity. http://o.canada.com/news/national/federal-librarians-fear-being-muzzled-und… And there is already an old code of conduct that mentions diversity and harassment. http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/about-us/Pages/code-conduct-value-ethics.aspx#h On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:52 PM, J Hayes <slowking4(a)gmail.com> wrote:

right, here's the tweet from an audience member at a ARL conference https://twitter.com/LibSkrat/status/651786423138430976 it is quoted on one of fuzheado's slides. On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Neotarf <neotarf(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I have posted a transcript of the Q&A portion: https://neotarf.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/danielle-citrons-wikicon-online-ha… and added links to the documents referenced. @Fae thanks for the link, I didn't know you could link to a specific point in a video @J Hayes "cultural buzzsaw" tweet? On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:08 PM, J Hayes <slowking4(a)gmail.com> wrote: > yes, > nice for arbcom to see how they are perceived > > and Andrew Lih mentioned the "cultural buzzsaw" tweet for importance > of fixing culture as one of the things wikipedia must do. > > this was for an audience of the US powers that be; it will be > interesting to see the impact on future conduct. > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jane Darnell <jane023(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Yes, that was an interesting Q&A - I was familiar with most of the >> material discussed in the talk (and a lot of it has been discussed here >> before), but I was surprised by the emotional response afterwards and the >> number of comments/questions. >> >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Links: >>> 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-Y-FuzAH4&t=85m30s >>> 2. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Comments… >>> >>> Folks may be interested in watching the Q&A session at the recent >>> WikiConference USA where gender and harassment was discussed for >>> about >>> 45 minutes.[1] It makes for an interesting summary of how Arbcom is >>> perceived with regard to handling harassment cases, and the types of >>> harassment of significant concern for our community. >>> >>> This has been raised on the Arbcom noticeboard[2], it will be >>> interesting to see how many current Arbcom members make a public >>> comment, or indeed if they are perfectly happy with the way Arbcom >>> currently works, or not. >>> >>> Fae >>> -- >>> faewik(a)gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gendergap mailing list >>> Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, >>> please visit: >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gendergap mailing list >> Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, >> please visit: >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org > To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, > please visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

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Carol Moore dc

6:23 p.m.

New subject: Video Q&A discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases

What we really need is trained mediators who have admin powers to sanction those who refuse to engage in mediation or who refuse to change their wicked ways. And since there job is enhancing civility on Wikipedia, which is one of the goals of the foundation, maybe foundation could figure out a way to pay them and to make sure that cabals of rednecked wankers can't drive them out. (My own noun and adjective.) Then far fewer things would get to untrained Arbcom %#(&$. Haven't listened to presentation to get appropriate adjective from it, but will soon. (Had a family wedding out of state so couldn't make it to the Wikiconference here in dc. DANG!!) Now someone has to promote this to media, especially the guy from Slate who seems pretty on top of things...

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J Hayes

9:55 p.m.

New subject: Video Q&A discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases

yes, notice crickets on talk page you could be dismissive of the questions as the usual "gender gap cabal", but when andrew lih says that is the perception of the culture among library professionals, and it needs to change, you would think good faith arbs would sit up and take notice. but as DGG says: "I hate to disillusion you, but not only is arb com very unlikely to eve[n] initiate anything, but it will not even commit itself to support anything" On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Kevin Gorman <kgorman(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I've been out of touch with the world for most of the last week, but I'm extremely disappointed to see the only active arbitrator to comment on that discussion so far just asked for a tl;dr when given a two hour long video of free advice from a leading expert in online harassment issues. Almost every case arb takes deals with harassment in one form or another - given the time they spend discussing trivialities, let alone drafting cases and on private lists, I would hope that no arbitrator (none of the sitting ones have formal training in dealing with online harrassment, AFAIK, although I may be missing someone) would refuse to spend a much smaller amount of time hearing one of the top experts n the subject talk about it. If you can't accept a two hour time committment, you probably shouldn't be an arb. ---- Kevin Gorman On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Links: 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-Y-FuzAH4&t=85m30s 2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Comments…

Folks may be interested in watching the Q&A session at the recent WikiConference USA where gender and harassment was discussed for about 45 minutes.[1] It makes for an interesting summary of how Arbcom is perceived with regard to handling harassment cases, and the types of harassment of significant concern for our community. This has been raised on the Arbcom noticeboard[2], it will be interesting to see how many current Arbcom members make a public comment, or indeed if they are perfectly happy with the way Arbcom currently works, or not. Fae -- faewik(a)gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please

visit:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

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Kevin Gorman

10:13 p.m.

New subject: Video Q&A discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases

The entire session was longer than just the Q&A, and dealt with ways to appropriately handle online harassment, coming from someone holding a named chair at a major university who is widely recognized as an expert on issues of online harrassment (one of *the* experts.) Since arbs get no formal training in how to handle online harrassment beyond what ENWP provides and a little bit of guidance from WMF, it's just flat out amazing that an arb who wasn't present for the session would refuse the minimal time committment. If they don't have that much free time for free expert guidance, they either don't care about online harrassment (which is an awful lot of what they deal with) or simply don't have time (in which, given the other time committments being an arb entails, means they can't possibly have time to be an arb.) I think next election cycle two of my questions to every candidate will be "Did you watch Danielle Citron's keynote, and if so, what are your thoughts on it?" and "Did you watch Sumana Harihareswara's keynote (from wikiconf 2014,) and if so, what are your thoughts on it?" I have a hard time imagining voting for anyone who says they didn't have time to watch them, or who can't come up with a reasonable set of comments on them. I doubt I'm alone in that. ---- Kevin Gorman On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

FYI, a 45 minutes commitment. Not saying much more, I'm tired of being a punch bag for Arbs and ex-Arbs. Fae On 19 Oct 2015 19:47, "Kevin Gorman" <kgorman(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I've been out of touch with the world for most of the last week, but I'm extremely disappointed to see the only active arbitrator to comment on that discussion so far just asked for a tl;dr when given a two hour long video of free advice from a leading expert in online harassment issues. Almost every case arb takes deals with harassment in one form or another - given the time they spend discussing trivialities, let alone drafting cases and on private lists, I would hope that no arbitrator (none of the sitting ones have formal training in dealing with online harrassment, AFAIK, although I may be missing someone) would refuse to spend a much smaller amount of time hearing one of the top experts n the subject talk about it. If you can't accept a two hour time committment, you probably shouldn't be an arb. ---- Kevin Gorman On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Links: 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-Y-FuzAH4&t=85m30s 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Comments… Folks may be interested in watching the Q&A session at the recent WikiConference USA where gender and harassment was discussed for about 45 minutes.[1] It makes for an interesting summary of how Arbcom is perceived with regard to handling harassment cases, and the types of harassment of significant concern for our community. This has been raised on the Arbcom noticeboard[2], it will be interesting to see how many current Arbcom members make a public comment, or indeed if they are perfectly happy with the way Arbcom currently works, or not. Fae -- faewik(a)gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

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Amanda Menking

1:57 a.m.

New subject: Video Q&A discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases

Thank you for doing this work, Neotarf! ~Amanda/Mssemantics On Oct 22, 2015, at 3:50 PM, Neotarf <neotarf@gmail.com<mailto:neotarf@gmail.com>> wrote: A transcript of the speech is now available: https://neotarf.wordpress.com/2015/10/23/danielle-citrons-wikicon-online-ha… The other links again: https://neotarf.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/danielle-citrons-wikicon-online-ha… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Comments… The speech itself is about 40 minutes, the Q&A is about 30-35 minutes, so if you listen to both, it will be a little over an hour. I have also added links to the texts of any documents mentioned. On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Kevin Gorman <kgorman@gmail.com<mailto:kgorman@gmail.com>> wrote: The entire session was longer than just the Q&A, and dealt with ways to appropriately handle online harassment, coming from someone holding a named chair at a major university who is widely recognized as an expert on issues of online harrassment (one of *the* experts.) Since arbs get no formal training in how to handle online harrassment beyond what ENWP provides and a little bit of guidance from WMF, it's just flat out amazing that an arb who wasn't present for the session would refuse the minimal time committment. If they don't have that much free time for free expert guidance, they either don't care about online harrassment (which is an awful lot of what they deal with) or simply don't have time (in which, given the other time committments being an arb entails, means they can't possibly have time to be an arb.) I think next election cycle two of my questions to every candidate will be "Did you watch Danielle Citron's keynote, and if so, what are your thoughts on it?" and "Did you watch Sumana Harihareswara's keynote (from wikiconf 2014,) and if so, what are your thoughts on it?" I have a hard time imagining voting for anyone who says they didn't have time to watch them, or who can't come up with a reasonable set of comments on them. I doubt I'm alone in that. ---- Kevin Gorman On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Fæ <faewik@gmail.com<mailto:faewik@gmail.com>> wrote:

...

FYI, a 45 minutes commitment. Not saying much more, I'm tired of being a punch bag for Arbs and ex-Arbs. Fae On 19 Oct 2015 19:47, "Kevin Gorman" <kgorman@gmail.com<mailto:kgorman@gmail.com>> wrote:

I've been out of touch with the world for most of the last week, but I'm extremely disappointed to see the only active arbitrator to comment on that discussion so far just asked for a tl;dr when given a two hour long video of free advice from a leading expert in online harassment issues. Almost every case arb takes deals with harassment in one form or another - given the time they spend discussing trivialities, let alone drafting cases and on private lists, I would hope that no arbitrator (none of the sitting ones have formal training in dealing with online harrassment, AFAIK, although I may be missing someone) would refuse to spend a much smaller amount of time hearing one of the top experts n the subject talk about it. If you can't accept a two hour time committment, you probably shouldn't be an arb. ---- Kevin Gorman On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Fæ <faewik@gmail.com<mailto:faewik@gmail.com>> wrote:

Links: 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-Y-FuzAH4&t=85m30s 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Comments… Folks may be interested in watching the Q&A session at the recent WikiConference USA where gender and harassment was discussed for about 45 minutes.[1] It makes for an interesting summary of how Arbcom is perceived with regard to handling harassment cases, and the types of harassment of significant concern for our community. This has been raised on the Arbcom noticeboard[2], it will be interesting to see how many current Arbcom members make a public comment, or indeed if they are perfectly happy with the way Arbcom currently works, or not. Fae -- faewik@gmail.com<mailto:faewik@gmail.com> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

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