dare i say it... so one can see why a lot of women (and their male
relatives) are nervous about any guy who SAYS he's really a woman
getting into the bathrooms, fitting rooms, lock rooms, showers, shelters
and prisons with us...
ALSO, on another note, I'm putting wikipedia links on a small pro-choice
site today but had to describe them as (quasi-accurate) though perhaps
(quasi-credible) would be more accurate.
Cause who knows what guys have run what women off of the articles and
put some weird spin on them and I just don't have time to go through
every article and talk page to figure it out...
On 5/12/2016 12:25 PM, Neotarf wrote:
I'm not quite sure how to answer JJ Marr and
Nathan, but if you watched
the Berkman panel I posted about earlier [1], the conclusion of the WMF
harassment survey is that the effect of harassment on women in
Wikipedia, is that they leave.
And not to beat around the bush, for those who are not going to read the
piece, the "certain topic" is sex, sex, and sex:
"...behaviors that were seen as being sexual or having a sexual edge to
them were far more likely to be creepy than more innocuous ones. Women,
especially, noted that behaviors like unwanted sexual advances,
constantly turning the conversation towards sex, requests for photos,
dates and invading their personal space were signs that a person was
creepy."
So this goes back to defining harassment. How do you tell the
difference between someone who genuinely does not want to appear creepy,
as in the hotel example, and someone who is deliberately skirting the
boundaries, in order to harass people while flying under the radar.
There is a long history of defining harassment and "hostile work
environment" in employment situations. For in-person interactions,
there is a whole set of non-verbal signals that tell you when to back
slowly away, the "odd smile" for example. But obviously in online
communications, you are not going to be able to see how someone smiles.
Harassment on the internet is something new, the old HR harassment
definitions can't just be copy-pasted.
And how far can you go in telling someone they have to adjust to
something that creeps them out? On enwiki, we have seen women advised
to "keep a low profile" if they don't want to be photoshopped onto
porn. So the "encyclopedia that anyone can edit" is now "the
encyclopedia that anyone can edit as long as they don't mind potential
employers finding non-consensual pornographic images of them on the
internet". Paradoxically, the WMF has gone the opposite direction from
arbcom, particularly in their recent safe space event policy, although
the means of enforcement are not very evident.
[1]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2016-April/006300.html
On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Isarra Yos <zhorishna(a)gmail.com
<mailto:zhorishna@gmail.com>> wrote:
Knowing what these traits are, even if they are uncontrollable, may
also be useful for educating others about them. If someone is
creeped out by something and actually knows why it's creeping them
out, it may be possible for them to realise that, oh, it's just
blah, and not actually a threat. And if on-wiki we notice someone
who might be put off by another user's behaviour, reaching out to
them and explaining why that behaviour is happening (especially if
it's fairly normal, which a lot of the things that may seem weird to
outsiders often are) could do a lot to put them at ease.
Possibly.
-I
On 10/05/16 17:02, JJ Marr wrote:
Other highlights:
From the list of "creepy" behavior
Laughing at inappropriate times
Talking too much about a topic
Displaying too much or too little emotion
Smiling peculiarly
Having excessively pale skin
Having bags under their eyes
and then
Here’s the thing: not being creepy /isn’t that
hard/.
Many of the examples of creepy behavior listed in
the Knox
University study could be avoided throughbasic social calibration
<http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/10/art-social-calibration/all/1/> and
being aware of the other person’s signals.
Setting aside that a lot of Wikipedians don't have "basic social
calibration", a lot of these behaviors are uncontrollable in
general. If you're "suggesting that Wikipedia editors display
aberrant behavior which prospective female editors find creepy,
making it less likely that they will contribute?", as another has
proposed, a lot (but not all) of these "creepy traits" that
allegedly make women less likely to contribute are uncontrollable
by those who have them. I need to stop smiling peculiarly? What
does that mean? And if we want to attract women to Wikipedia by
removing creepy people, does that mean I might get banned due to
me talking "too much" about a certain topic?
On May 10, 2016 12:25 PM, "Nathan"
<<mailto:nawrich@gmail.com>nawrich@gmail.com
<mailto:nawrich@gmail.com>> wrote:
It boils down to "people with aberrant behavior or bearing
produce anxiety in women." This is drawn from a Facebook
survey. It's interesting, even if the "study" doesn't really
produce any more knowledge than most other Facebook surveys.
The link to the problem of addressing Wikipedia's gendergap
seems tenuous; are you suggesting that Wikipedia editors
display aberrant behavior which prospective female editors
find creepy, making it less likely that they will contribute?
On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Neotarf <neotarf(a)gmail.com
<mailto:neotarf@gmail.com>> wrote:
A study published in the journal New Ideas in Psychology,
unfortunately behind a paywall, reviewed by Dr. NerdLove. [1]
Some highlights:
*"*So we’re not allowed to give women compliments? – *No,
telling a woman how sexy she is isn’t a compliment,
especially when you don’t have that level of intimacy with
her."
*"One of the keys to what made someone creepy was the
potential for ambiguity. The study’s authors suggest that
because one’s creep-radar is keyed towards finding
potential threats, the ambiguousness of somebody’s
behavior could make people uncomfortable. After all, if
you’re continually wondering if this person actually poses
a threat to you, you’re left in a state of anxious
paralysis; you’re continually on edge trying to determine
just what the appropriate reaction to the situation is.
Guessing wrong can have consequences, after all; misjudge
a potential threat and now you’ve made yourself vulnerable
to someone who means you harm."
*"One of the most common ways guys are creepy is by
ignoring issues of boundaries and demonstrating that they
have more information about somebody than they should."
Example from Instagram: He: "So I take it you're staying
at the Excalibur?" She: "Excuse me, do you not seriously
realize how f*cking creepy it is for a stranger to message
a woman out of the blue insinuating he knows where she is?"
*From the comments: "Someone who comes close to that line
and manages not to cross it obviously knows where it is."
[1]
http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2016/05/the-science-of-being-creepy/
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