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manifesto

Sandra ordonez

24 Mar 2011 24 Mar '11

2:11 p.m.

Thanks to Slim Virgin for providing the foundation of our Manifesto. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_Gap_Manifesto What language can we include so that we feel safe about sharing personal stories here, or opinions? Should people be required to "sign" the manifesto in order to stay in the group? What other goals do we want to include? Sandy

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Pete Forsyth

24 Mar 24 Mar

2:56 p.m.

On Mar 24, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Sandra ordonez wrote:

What language can we include so that we feel safe about sharing personal stories here, or opinions?

Hi Sandy and all, I love the Manifesto, and hope it will continue to evolve. I have a sort of general concern though, about the way we think and talk about "safety." I should say up front, I don't have a solution in mind -- but I think it's important to think this through carefully. Of course we want to establish a safe space, but I think we have a responsibility not to talk about safety in terms that go beyond what we can reasonably provide. And our list which is publicly archived. Even if we are diligent about dealing with bad faith *participation* on the list, we have absolutely no ability to exclude anyone from reading the list, or linking to or commenting on it elsewhere on the Internet. As it stands right now (with open sign-up and public list archives), I don't feel great about putting emphasis on encouraging people to voice frustrations or, more generally, to feel safe. It doesn't seem responsible. -Pete

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Sandra ordonez

3:32 p.m.

hmmm. okay. you can delete that part if you want. this is just a rough draft, and i'm assuming together we can come up with something that is accurate and positive. thanks for pointing that out pete. On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Pete Forsyth <peteforsyth(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Mar 24, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Sandra ordonez wrote:

What language can we include so that we feel safe about sharing personal

stories here, or opinions? Hi Sandy and all, I love the Manifesto, and hope it will continue to evolve. I have a sort of general concern though, about the way we think and talk about "safety." I should say up front, I don't have a solution in mind -- but I think it's important to think this through carefully. Of course we want to establish a safe space, but I think we have a responsibility not to talk about safety in terms that go beyond what we can reasonably provide. And our list which is publicly archived. Even if we are diligent about dealing with bad faith *participation* on the list, we have absolutely no ability to exclude anyone from reading the list, or linking to or commenting on it elsewhere on the Internet. As it stands right now (with open sign-up and public list archives), I don't feel great about putting emphasis on encouraging people to voice frustrations or, more generally, to feel safe. It doesn't seem responsible. -Pete _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

-- Sandra Ordonez Web Astronaut "Helping you rock out in the virtual world." *www.collaborativenation.com*

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Joseph Reagle

5:11 p.m.

On Thursday, March 24, 2011, Sandra ordonez wrote:

Thanks to Slim Virgin for providing the foundation of our Manifesto.

I like it a lot, and made some tweaks to the prose. I also like the sentiment of the last bullet, but something doesn't ring quite right to me in it and I will continue to think it over. With respect to the final clause, I have some confusion about the purpose of the manifesto: 1. Is this supposed to be a code of conduct for this list then? (That's how it strikes me. Why not call it a code of conduct then?) Also, on some set of Wiki pages? 2. The list is referenced only at the end, and there's no link. 3. I'd be careful about implying this list is a "safe" place for disclosures of a personal or emotional nature. This is an open list that is publicly archived. Of course, I'm not implying that anti-social behavior be accepted, only that the nature of the list be duly noted. (The Foundation's privacy statement used to have nice information on the lists [1], but it is no longer there, I wonder where that information has gone now?) [1]: http://wikimediafoundation.org/?oldid=13702#E-mail.2C_mailing_lists_and_IRC

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Pete Forsyth

5:21 p.m.

On Mar 24, 2011, at 1:11 PM, Joseph Reagle wrote:

1. Is this supposed to be a code of conduct for this list then? (That's how it strikes me. Why not call it a code of conduct then?) Also, on some set of Wiki pages?

Let's keep in mind that there's already been some work done on "code of conduce" -- http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap#Discuss Might be worthwhile to keep a "code of conduct" (simple, common sense rules for behavior) separate from a "manifesto" (what are we trying to accomplish?) Also, in response to Frances: Please just make your edits on the wiki! If you're not so comfortable with wikis and need some help, feel free to contact me off-list. (I'm worried your excellent suggestions might get passed over if you're working on a different version of the document than the rest of us.) -Pete

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carolmooredc＠verizon.net

5:34 p.m.

On 3/24/2011 4:21 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote:

On Mar 24, 2011, at 1:11 PM, Joseph Reagle wrote: > 1. Is this supposed to be a code of conduct for this list then?

(That's how it strikes me. Why not call it a code of conduct then?) Also, on some set of Wiki pages?

Let's keep in mind that there's already been some work done on "code

of conduce" -- http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap#Discuss

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap#Discuss Should have a section on goals that would include goals oriented part of the manifesto and then have the current section on mailing list rules, adding anything new and necessary. And make it clear that violating specific rules, especially after warnings from moderators, is what gets you booted, not some vague threat about "using the list in a negative way." Also, I don't know if adminship and bureaucratship are used a lot in wikipedia, but even for people who've been around a while they sound a little too "incrowd-y". Spell out administrator and make clear what a bureaucrat is (I'm not sure). Carol in dc

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Shlomi Fish

25 Mar 25 Mar

6:31 a.m.

Hi Sandra, On Thursday 24 Mar 2011 19:11:21 Sandra ordonez wrote:

Thanks to Slim Virgin for providing the foundation of our Manifesto. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_Gap_Manifesto What language can we include so that we feel safe about sharing personal stories here, or opinions? Should people be required to "sign" the manifesto in order to stay in the group? What other goals do we want to include?

Well, one note: «As this group touches upon complex problems that permeate human history» - I am a foreign spaker of English, and have been studying and communicating in English for many years now, and I wasn't familiar with the word "permeate" and could only guess it from its context: * http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/permeate Perhaps it should be replaced with a synonym. Otherwise, looks fine. Regards, Shlomi Fish -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ My Aphorisms - http://www.shlomifish.org/humour.html Modern Perl - the 3-D Movie. In theatres near you. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

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carolmooredc＠verizon.net
Joseph Reagle
Pete Forsyth
Sandra ordonez
Shlomi Fish