On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:00 PM, <gendergap-request@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Am I crazy? (B?ria Lima)
2. Re: Am I crazy? (Nathan)
3. Re: Am I crazy? (Daniel and Elizabeth Case)
4. Re: Am I crazy? (Daniel and Elizabeth Case)
5. Re: Am I crazy? (Nathan)
6. Re: Am I crazy? (Lady of Shalott)
7. Re: Am I crazy? (Sue Gardner)
8. Re: Am I crazy? (Gillian White)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:12:49 +0100
From: B?ria Lima <beria.lima@wikimedia.pt>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
To: fredbaud@fairpoint.net, Increasing female participation in
Wikimedia projects <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<CAA2XHjBUR3v-KNc2T4BBde12Tju0rkyL3XmW7LroLKS+338F3w@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>
> *It would not have to be a gender related issue for this to occur.*
>

Fred is right in that point. I'm not a gender editor (my articles almost
never have problems with gender issues), however, the topic is one where you
can find the most biased people on earth: Religion.

And I would say you case was not the worst one, the worst case i can imagine
(and already happened with me several times) is to remove biased info (or
include NPOV info) in an article about a religion / god / dogma who is
watched by some believer of the same god / religion. ;)
_____
*B?ria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt>
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde ? dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somat?rio de todo o conhecimento humano. ? isso o que estamos a
fazer.*

On 24 October 2011 18:54, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@fairpoint.net> wrote:

> > I've never particularly felt the "boys club" atmosphere on Wikipedia
> > that apparently deters some women. However, I am very angry right now.
> > I tried to add [[date rape]] as a "see also" link to the very
> > incomplete article [[college dating]]. The relevance seemed obvious to
> > me. It was removed by two separate people, and when I took it to the
> > talk page, its relevance was questioned, and I was told to "prove it"
> > because it was "obvious to whom?" Fine. I've proven it with sourcing,
> > adding a small section. I think that needed to happen anyway, but I'm
> > infuriated that I could not just add a see also link to it and tell
> > the students who are really working on the article that a section
> > needed adding. (The people who removed the link are seasoned
> > Wikipedians, not members of the class developing the article.) Am I
> > crazy?
> >
> > LadyofShalott
>
> No, that is the usual reaction of biased editors of all persuasions, to
> throw their mind out of gear, when obvious conclusions which contradict
> their bias are advanced.
>
> It would not have to be a gender related issue for this to occur.
>
> Fred
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:13:52 -0400
From: Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
<gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<CALKX9dQuYM_3jyBfPSuNw7M3fkwrMdPeCsegvFPWXYXNZOfWDw@mail.gmail.com>
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I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with.
If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish,
the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:16:10 -0400
From: "Daniel and Elizabeth Case" <dancase@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"
<gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <6BC79C0C9DE44D779B5156A841AC35A9@Dcase102796>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?

I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with.
If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish,
the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.

On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating

Daniel Case

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:17:46 -0400
From: "Daniel and Elizabeth Case" <dancase@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"
<gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <5EA72D57C76A4108AA835C2356056251@Dcase102796>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

Well, it's not rectified yet. The one source I've given thus far is
not enough apparently. I have to add more.

Already done:

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/25/nyregion/new-policy-is-aimed-at-preventing-date-rape-on-campuses.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=College_dating&diff=457185120&oldid=457178405

Daniel Case

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:24:15 -0400
From: Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
<gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<CALKX9dReBo2wwjU3n45Qi6f7xQru8Ob_=LidSRmPpDjMovS-Rg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Not convinced by the AfD. "Snow" kept after less than 24 hours, based
on one substantial vote and a bunch of "what he said" votes that
didn't address whether "college dating" is so distinct a phenomena
that it needs to be treated separately from [[dating]]. A search
string of +college +dating is obviously going to return a lot of
results, that doesn't prove notability - and notability isn't the only
concern.

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:25:30 -0400
From: Lady of Shalott <ladyofshalott.wp@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
<gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<CACv6LKfC6GPuSpDVmmQ8qGOC-LQ_JDUa4JA4hroCoYdEgoJQxg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Thanks! Does someone here have access to the full article at
<http://gas.sagepub.com/content/3/4/457.short>?

LoS

On 10/24/11, Daniel and Elizabeth Case <dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
>
> Well, it's not rectified yet. The one source I've given thus far is
> not enough apparently. I have to add more.
>
> Already done:
>
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/25/nyregion/new-policy-is-aimed-at-preventing-date-rape-on-campuses.html
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=College_dating&diff=457185120&oldid=457178405
>
> Daniel Case
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:11:44 -0700
From: Sue Gardner <sgardner@wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
<gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<CAGZ0=LP7uvTuG5uxGq_GtaJZ-ryCvz6yXs0dr=si0hSgEnNW=w@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Yeah, personally I think the subject is notable. There has been tons
of academic research and popular history written about the history of
dating, college dating, the invention of the 'teenager,' etc. Even
just within the United States.

I think I did a radio series on this once -- IIRC, Beth Bailey was a
really great source. She wrote this fascinating book:
http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351.
Susan J. Douglas was good too, as well as Stephanie Coontz and Barbara
Ehrenreich. They are all American, though. Lots has been written about
the UK too, but I'm not sure about other cultures/countries.

Thanks,
Sue

--
?Sue Gardner
Executive Director
Wikimedia Foundation

415 839 6885 office
415 816 9967 cell

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
the sum of all knowledge.? Help us make it a reality!

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

On 24 October 2011 11:16, Daniel and Elizabeth Case
<dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nathan
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM
> To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
>
> I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with.
> If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish,
> the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.
>
>
> ? ?On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:
>
> ? ?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating
>
> Daniel Case
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:00:55 +1100
From: Gillian White <whiteghost.ink@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
<gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<CAMrpCZUU0PNGiEADof9RtK3upeJhOSJ3r-Q9uZAgWWJBSDZmWw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Apart from any content problems, the article had no context. It was not
linked to what should be regarded as its parents. And that lack of
coherence, combined with its specific terminology made it largely
incomprehensible to people unfamiliar with American educational systems,
aside from its social practices. For example, it is by no means universal
that students live in residential colleges while attending university. I had
a go at giving it some context so readers can go from one article to the
next (specifically, from "courtship" to "dating" to "college dating") but I
agree that it would be better if it was renamed, as the issues that are
distinctive to dating in college/university could then be developed.

Gillian

On 25 October 2011 06:11, Sue Gardner <sgardner@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Yeah, personally I think the subject is notable. There has been tons
> of academic research and popular history written about the history of
> dating, college dating, the invention of the 'teenager,' etc. Even
> just within the United States.
>
> I think I did a radio series on this once -- IIRC, Beth Bailey was a
> really great source. She wrote this fascinating book:
> http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351
> .
> Susan J. Douglas was good too, as well as Stephanie Coontz and Barbara
> Ehrenreich. They are all American, though. Lots has been written about
> the UK too, but I'm not sure about other cultures/countries.
>
> Thanks,
> Sue
>
>
> --
> ?Sue Gardner
> Executive Director
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> 415 839 6885 office
> 415 816 9967 cell
>
> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
> the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
>
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>
>
>
> On 24 October 2011 11:16, Daniel and Elizabeth Case
> <dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nathan
> > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM
> > To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
> > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
> >
> > I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with.
> > If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish,
> > the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.
> >
> >
> > On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:
> >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating
> >
> > Daniel Case
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gendergap mailing list
> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
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