I also don't have a problem with Erik's POV in particular. My views on this topic are basically that:
1) Yes, some of the men here are being excessively strident and dismissive in a lot of cases
2) Yes, I feel less inclined to speak my mind because I know that I'm going to have to defend every point I make from three or four men telling me how it's not a problem
3) No, I don't think the solution is to fork the list. We have to function with men onwiki, there's no reason to kick them off here
4) I'm not sure how moderation could be used effectively other than to have moderators speak to people who are overly dismissive. Having a moderator approve all posts seems excessive, but I would support, say, an X-strikes-you're-out policy regarding belittling or dismissive behavior
5) I don't think it's constructive to require the men to justify themselves to us or the list. If they're here, they're here because they want to work on the gender gap. That said...
6) I don't know how many more ways we women can tell you guys that some of you are coming across as obnoxious. I'm sorry if that offends you (mostly because I'm a woman and I've been trained to be sorry if I offend people, hey look how that works), but YOU ARE. Please accept that this is happening, it's making the women unhappy, and we'd like you to think before you speak from now on.
7) Please do NOT immediately protest that you feel like the mean feminist women are trying to oppress you by telling you all this. Feel like we're snap-judging your statements? Feel like we're treating you as your gender rather than yourself, and unfairly so? Feel like we're just not listening to the points you're trying to make? WELCOME TO OUR WORLD AS WOMEN.
-FluffOn Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Nepenthe <topazbutterfly@gmail.com> wrote:
Unless Erik has alter egos posting here, I didn't have any problems with his comments. I find the idea that men and women are automatically equal participants on a list like this a bit naive, but it's not offensive.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 4:04 PM, George Herbert <george.herbert@gmail.com> wrote:On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Laura Hale <laura@fanhistory.com> wrote:
>[...]
> Erik's comment made me feel decidedly uncomfortable. On a list dedicated toI would like to hear more from other women here on your impressions of
> helping increase the female participation rates on Wikipedia, Erik basically
> said: WOMENS! THEY IS DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ME! If I went to some women's
> communities and I posted Erik's comment (and comments of other male posters)
> with the context of these comments being said on a list dedicated to
> increasing female participation rates...
>
> ... well, you'd potentially have a mob involved. This effort? It would
> appear extremely sexist. (The large male involvement, the defensiveness of
> men regaridng their participation contribute to this image.) That these
> sexist comments are coming from the Deputy Director of WMF? It makes this
> worst because it is sexism coming from inside the institution.
>
> If you and Erik want to belong, that's great. It should be purely in
> support roles: Women say they are doing this project and need help. WMF
> officials step in and say we can help this way. If this was the general
> mode of male participation on the list, of specific support offered in
> response to specific requests, male involvement would be less problematic.
and responses to Erik's comments.
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