Message: 7
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:37:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Fred Bauder" <fredbaud@fairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on
	Wikimedia Commons
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"
	<gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
	<44058.66.243.192.69.1305736661.squirrel@webmail.fairpoint.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

> On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:16, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@fairpoint.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> > My point is this: a significant number of women (current and
>> potential
>> > editors) don't want to work in a "I like the big tits" atmosphere,
>> > whatever
>> > was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some *do* mind.
>>
>
>
>> So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty
>> sure
>> you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down
>> heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior.
>>
>> The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may
>> sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users
>> who
>> feel they are being treated unfairly.
>
>
> I see it as an inane remark that's symptomatic of the culture, in the
> sense
> that the poster thought it appropriate to post it.
>
> Moving away from discussing this image now, to the broader issue, we do
> see
> a fair number of comments like that on Wikipedia, and letting them pass
> without comment simply means they'll never stop.
>
> We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of
> the
> content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In
> the
> course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made
> that
> tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a
> different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she
> was,
> and how he wanted to have her babies.
>
> I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel)
> that
> I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I
> wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something
> about me, rather than about them.
>
> I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I
> did
> say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather
> than
> screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it
> suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these
> remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they
> challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about
> it.
> Not make a fuss.
>
> So that felt kind of depressing.
>
> Sarah
Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns of the
dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text
fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would
happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate
feedback effectively. A polite note fails.

Fred



Although I do encourage Sarah to speak her mind, I encourage her not to "scream it from the rooftops" because this could start a flame war. I definitely would not do that if I were you. But you also, as you said, not be too polite. Don't sugar coat things." That's my opinion I have never stumbled upon that on Wikipedia (I don't contribute especially often), and I hope I never do. However if I do, I will be sure to say something.
--With well wishes.
RDW2210