Since you've asked Derric...

When you posted your message, "Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all here?"
- I was ready to steam in as I misinterpreted it.

I thought that - as a response to Carol's comment that women get hassled here and quit the list - you were saying, "We're not supposed to be talking about women getting hassled, we're supposed to be talking about why women leave." (I was going to say, "but they left precisely BECAUSE they were being hassled".)

Fortunately I read your next message in time not to steam in.

Perhaps instead of:

> "Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this discussion is going.  Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all here?"

...something along the lines of,
> "I'm sure there are lots of examples people could give of poor behaviour on this list. Since the purpose of this list is "...discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of women and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'." then perhaps we should discuss measures that would tackle such poor behaviour."

Also if you ask a white artist to paint a picture of a man they will most likely paint a picture of a white man. If you ask a black artist to paint a picture of a man they will most likely paint a picture of a black man. Neither are being racist. It's worth remembering that men - no matter how progressive or forward thinking - experience the world as men and women experience the world as women.

There's a well known workplace experiment where a group of men are put in one room and given a task and a group of women are put in another room and given the same task. The women invariably put everything on the coffee table in front of them, lean forward, and work collaboratively. Meanwhile in the men are choosing someone who will lead them, Mr Alpha Male then goes and stands by the white board taking ideas from the room. Neither room is being sexist, it is just how the respective genders like to work.

I also can't help but notice that solutions being put forward seem to be of the latter, male orientated 'from-the-top-down' variety.

Marie

> From: datzrott@alizeepathology.com
> To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 13:05:00 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

>
> Would anybody object to me hijacking this thread to use as a sort of meta thread for what just happened? I have further questions and things to explain and get feedback on. I can start another thread if wanted.
>
> This whole situation sort of reminds me of when I tried suggesting on Wikitech-l that people make use of NVC and people were really offended. Like there my intention was never to come off as condescending, but apparently I am just really awful at not coming off that way via email. I'd like to work on that and also find out what sort of things men on this list can do to make the environment better are and in specific myself. I think a polite discussion of what just happened would help advance all of those goals.
>
> Thank you,
> Derric Atzrott
>
>
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