Just for the record: I am in possession of a full set of female genitalia, and I think Carol's tone was aggressive and very clearly represented an assumption of bad faith. Accusing other editors of AfDing articles because of some crypto-misogyny plan they're secretly pursing, especially editors who have no history of such a thing, is not helping to close of the gendergap. It's shoving a wedge into that gap and going "No one but me can possibly be working for the good here. Off with you, penis-havers!"
Similarly, implying that someone is not allowed to express an opinion about someone's behavior unless/until they do the work you prefer them to do is not advocating for women or women's rights. It's advocating for shutting out everyone who isn't doing exactly what you want them to do, in exactly the proportions you want them to do it.
In short: the "repressive" comments I see in this conversation are coming from women, not men, and it saddens me that people think this sort of behavior somehow helps anything.
-Fluffernutter
On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Laura Hale <laura@fanhistory.com> wrote:<snip>I find nothing wrong with Carol's tone and I find it troubling that the people who do are all men, and that men continue to dominate the conversation with out having provided any real evidence of their value to improving the gendergap or any evidence of having learned lessons from this list... such as, you know, using the tone argument to historically repress women and how it really looks when men appear to gang up on a woman to do that.Now, that may not be your intent, and I assuming you were acting in good faith in making your comment... but now you know. :) And hopefully, you will use fewer arguments used to historically repress female voices. :)Anyway, what gendergap work have you been doing lately Ryan? We miss you on Wikinews and would love to have you writing articles about women over there. :)Sincerely,Laura Hale
Sent from my iPadCarol, I have to point out that I added myself to the gender gap list because I want to help reduce it; however, comments you make are pushing me to remove myself. Your attitude when it comes to feminism is combative. Taking a combative stance doesn’t help your argument.
Ryan Vesey
From: gendergap-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:gendergap-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Morton
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 11:38 AM
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Reminder of Feminism Article Alerts
What I am taking personally is your assertion that we nominated these articles for some anti-female agenda.
Which you continue to do by suggesting my characterisation of your argument as ridiculous is due to you being a woman.
The irony of then telling me not to take it personally is... Ah, well..
Of course I take personally being characterised as holding offensive views.
The point was; I am educating you about the sorts of things that put people off editing. I am a big believer in making wikipedia a welcoming place, and your comments characterise the unfortunate low level nastiness that often puts people off. I am sure it was unintended, hence the explanation.
Tom Morton
On 26 Aug 2012, at 17:28, Carol Moore DC <carolmooredc@verizon.net> wrote:As a female I've been called ridiculous for having an opinion so many times I don't even know what it means anymore :-)
But seriously, it's not like the nominator said:"I'm on the GenderGap list and here's why I think this list would agree these articles should be deleted... "
Don't take rejections of AfD nominations so personally...
CM
On 8/26/2012 11:50 AM, Thomas Morton wrote:
On 26 Aug 2012, at 16:36, Carol Moore DC <carolmooredc@verizon.net> wrote:
Questionable just means one has questions. So it's nice, unlike the other words which I was contrasting with questionable - not using to describe my specific questions on specific articles in that particular AfD list. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Feminism/Article_alerts
But frankly I do wonder why two people on this list nominate brand new articles related to women for deletion rather than improving them.
HOWEVER -- the specifics should be discussed at the relevant AfD pages, so if this little dust up gets people there, goody goody!! :-)
CM
Wow. What a ridiculous way to say "yes". Ive always found you to be switched on and relevant in the past; but looking over your contributions to those AFDs it feels like your certain the aim is to remove these articles because we are anti-women. And for no other reason.
This is the sort of thing that puts women off editing Wikipedia and I am happy to call it out.
Tom
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