Hi John -
I'm tired so I could have just missed someting, but I'm not not really sure
how you got your post out of Emily's post, or for that matter, out of the
rest of the thread. A discussion about archaic gendered terminology (and
face it, aviatrix is archaic) is not an attempt to define all genders as
the same, and equally, it is not an attempt to invalidate anyone's gender
identity. Invalidating someone's gender identity is a very serious
problem; please don't suggest that someone has done so without very clearly
explaining what you mean. (And by serious problem, I mean that if I see a
situation occur on this list where I honestly feel that someone is
attempting to invalidate someone else's gender identity, things are going
to go BOOM.)
Thanks,
Kevin Gorman
On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 8:05 PM, john allyn <jaddtwo(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Somehow you appear to think that equality and sameness
are synonymous. It
is not possible to close the gender gap by defining male and female as the
same. This kind of thinking will drive the wedge deeper because each will
be invalidated for who they are.
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1. Re: Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9 (john allyn)
2. Re: Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9 (Emily Monroe)
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 14:21:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: john allyn <jaddtwo(a)yahoo.com>
To: "gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org" <gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9
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Somehow you appear to think that equality and sameness are synonymous. It
is not possible to close the gender gap by defining male and female as the
same. This kind of thinking will drive the wedge deeper because each will
be invalidated for who they are.
________________________________
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gendergap-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
To: gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 6:00 AM
Subject: Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Archaic gendered terminology (Lane Rasberry)
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 15:43:47 -0400
From: Lane Rasberry <lane(a)bluerasberry.com>
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
participation of women within Wikimedia projects."
<gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Archaic gendered terminology
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Hello,
I expect that many people will continue to use the term "actress" for
females in the profession. I notice that the Amy Johnson discussion raises
that.
A couple of years ago I got to review an elementary English textbook being
distributed in very large numbers in North India. It was an original work
seemingly derived from public domain content and had a section on gendered
nouns, including "negro" and "negress". I looked at the time for a
style
guide on best practices for gendered term and I could not find anything
clear when I looked then, but obviously there is bad information to be
found online among the public domain texts and it really grated on me that
new print works were being distributed to teach children such things.
We might not be so far from the day when someone could publish a Wikipedia
Manual of Style and expect it to be an authoritative text. I am not sure
what the right answer is in this case but whatever you find please consider
noting on the manual of style because this question will come up again.
Thanks for sharing.
On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Gobonobo <gobonobo(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I've been going through a lot of historical
biographies lately and am
surprised to see how often archaic gendered terms such as poetess,
sculptress, and aviatrix crop up in Wikipedia articles. I know some of
these come from the older sources such as the 1911 Britannica, but in
other
cases their inclusion is the result of decisions
being made by editors.
There's currently a discussion on [[Talk:Amy Johnson]] over whether she
should be referred to as an aviatrix, for instance.
I'm wondering how this has been dealt with previously and if there are
specific policies surrounding such uses. I've found the essays
[[Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language]] and [[Wikipedia:Use modern
language]]
and note that [[WP:MOS]] says "use
gender-neutral language where this can
be done with clarity and precision". It seems as if despite these fairly
clear precepts, the use of these terms persists.
Are there any archaic terms where it has been broadly agreed that using
them is not encyclopedic? I would be much obliged if anyone could point
me
to previous discussions about this.
~Gobonobo
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