Quoth Tom Morton: "But I know I am in a minority singing from the sensible hymn sheet around here so I'll put up ;) hopefully having made a point that might cause at least one person to think carefully."Well, you've certainly made me think carefully about whether this list is actually a safe space to discuss sexism- and gender-related issues.On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Thomas Morton <morton.thomas@googlemail.com> wrote:
He almost certainly would have :)
There is nothing inappropriate about the phrase mind and body.
What is inappropriate is nerd rage. That's what puts of people (of all sorts) from contributing.
But I know I am in a minority singing from the sensible hymn sheet around here so I'll put up ;) hopefully having made a point that might cause at least one person to think carefully.
Tom
On 18 Jul 2013 17:49, "Ryan Kaldari" <rkaldari@wikimedia.org> wrote:On Jul 18, 2013, at 8:41 AM, Thomas Morton <morton.thomas@googlemail.com> wrote:My thought was on reading your comment was something like... it didn't seem at all a sexist comment, and wondering why you were focusing on the word "body" and ingnoring "mind".Of course it was sexist. Would Drmies have made a joke about complimenting the editor's body if the editor had been male? Not a chance in hell. Just because something isn't blatantly offensive doesn't mean it isn't sexist.Ryan Kaldari
It struck me as somewhat odd, pleasant, sweet post which elicited an unpleasant reaction.I'd suggest probably to anyone reading it.. the reaction is what might put them off Wikipedia. Because after all, a friendly posting on a noticeboard getting flamed is the sort of environment we *know* is offputting to people.
TomOn 18 July 2013 16:10, Katherine Casey <fluffernutter.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
But I did all those things, Powers. I said that I knew it was supposed to be humourous and that LoS might not personally mind it, and I said that my concern was for other people reading it. And the responses I've gotten, both directed at me and among people not talking to me, were pretty horrible. All of them alleged that I had no right to speak at all, and certainly not a right to ruin the fun other editors were having with my silly old "women are equal" crap.I see a large part - maybe the bigger part - of the problem here as the fact that men perceive my intervention as "humorless scolding" that's just out to ruin their good, clean fun (fun that was totally humorous and in no way in need of correction, of course), and that they feel the appropriate response to that is to jeer, laugh, and insult me freely, the better to make sure no woman dares speak up next time.As a thought experiment, Powers, consider: would you ever tell a male editor that their behavior came off as "scolding"? I suspect the answer is no; that's a term almost exclusively reserved for use against women.-FluffOn Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Powers <LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
I think your approach was well-intentioned but flawed, much like Drmies’ initial post.
Unfortunately, your admonition came off like the stereotypical “that’s so sexist to comment on a woman’s body” approach, which triggered defenses that focused on the fact that it was just a joke, Drmies and LoS are friends, why don’t you people have a sense of humor?
If, instead, you’d acknowledged the humor (rather than just an attempt at humor), acknowledged that LoS herself likely would not find it offensive, nor that Drmies intended it as such… and then explained that your concern was for other editors who might come across the comment and, not knowing the relationships involved, tick Wikipedia down yet another mental notch in “welcomingness”.
Instead you came across as humorless and scolding, which rarely garners productive responses.
Powers &8^]
-----Original Message-----
From: Katherine Casey [mailto:fluffernutter.wiki@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday 17 July 2013 14:24
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
Subject: [Gendergap] Casual sexism on en.wp
Another day, another example of casual sexism exhibited by en.wikipedia editors who mean absolutely no harm, but simply don't understand how they could cause harm while meaning none. I seem to have caused significant alarm and offense to a number of male editors be publicly pointing out that I found the comment inappropriate.
Was there a better way to handle this? I can't help feeling that saying nothing or hatting the section would have been supporting the notion that it's either not a problem or not remarkable for male editors to make comments encouraging others to comment on female editors' bodies.
-Fluff
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