On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 7:23 AM, Dominic <dmcdevit@cox.net> wrote:

This is not entirely relevant (though quite fascinating). There is no single definition of feminism, and its meaning is especially dependent on cultural mores of their time and place. You might call Boudica, Elizabeth I, or Abigail Adams feminists, but that doesn't mean they necessarily even supported most of what we'd call women's rights. I see where you are coming from, but I could just as easily point out that Martin Luther King referred to his own race as "Negro" if I wanted to defend its modern usage.

Actually, you omitted the relevant content from my previous quote. I stated "The NY times article describes her as a feminist", I don't. Whichever mores the NY times or the contributing writer subscribe to, might seem irrelevant but it is their characterization, not mine. You are however, free to take it up with them. :P


On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 6:20 AM, Theo10011 <de10011@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]

I'm sure Dominic can correct me if I'm wrong on this one. 

Let's step back, though. To me, the more important issue here is that a new, possibly female, editor made an innocuous change in good faith and was reverted and branded a vandal. Whatever we think about the grammatical debate, it was not vandalism, and he or she (or they!) are a potential new editor we may have scared away. Our response should not simply be to forget about that and start a discussion about arcane policy, as if that's the solution. For example, I think you may have even given the impression to the new editor that the revert was justified because she didn't use the singular "they" (your "fix"), Ryan(!). Looking at the reverter's talk page history, this seems to be a pattern. We'll do more to make this project a more welcoming place to women and everyone else by addressing such antisocial and unwelcoming behavior than we will by debating between "he or she" or "she and he" and the singular they—both of which, it should be mentioned, are relatively gender neutral when compared to the generic "he" alternative.

And this is something we agree on. This particular editor seems knowledgeable of Wikipedia policies, and is able to articulate her argument quite well. She responded to the previous comments (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AGender-neutral_language&action=historysubmit&diff=468194043&oldid=468193586) and seems intent on discussing this on a wider forum. She actually stopped after the first warning, and tried to engage the original editor. I suggested discussing this issue in MOS-related place, to which she agreed to. I hope she follows through.

I would suggest maybe referring her to this list? She seems quiet knowledgeable and articulate. Maybe this list might benefit from having her perspective?

Regards
Theo