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Re: [Design] VisualEditor section...

Skins across Wikimedia projects

Ori Livneh

24 Jul 2013 24 Jul '13

12:30 a.m.

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Jared Zimmerman

24 Jul 24 Jul

3:19 a.m.

I'm a little torn on this. If skins evolve within Wikipedia (and foundation projects) but not on mediawiki core I won't feel like we're putting out a good product. That said I do think there is value in the default install skin on mediawiki differing from that of Wikipedia, it waters down the brand. The problem with simultaneously maintaining development on the Wikipedia skin and a second "equally good but different" skin for distribution as her default skin for a mediawiki install is that it is a lot of overhead, certainly more than we can handle right now. The other question is how different do they have to be, a brand isn't just a logo and name it's the entire look and feel. Does mediawiki need their own? It's a problem that I don't have a clear answer for just yet but something that we should think about. Sent while mobile

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On Jul 23, 2013, at 3:30 PM, Ori Livneh <ori(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: Flagging this bug for the folks on this list: "Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default" https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912 To be clear, I know about ongoing work to develop and implement visual identity guidelines. The bug above is related but much narrower in scope, referring specifically to a problem incurred as a side-effect of the popularity of MediaWiki as a platform. --- Ori Livneh ori(a)wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

Ori Livneh

3:55 a.m.

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Jared Zimmerman <jzimmerman(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:

...

I'm a little torn on this. If skins evolve within Wikipedia (and foundation projects) but not on mediawiki core I won't feel like we're putting out a good product.

I know what you mean, but what I'm calling for is really minimal: identify a UI feature which that could be usable and attractive in two variants (like two different shades of grey for the background of the Vector sidebar), and choose one for the default for core, and the other for Wikipedia. You can include the Wikipedia-specific style in core; just gate it with a configuration variable. Most third-party MediaWiki instances aren't styled the way they're styled because their administrators wanted to mimic Wikipedia, but rather because they find the defaults sensible and useable and didn't want to fuss with things. We should continue to provide defaults that are sensible and usable, but we should pick one -- just one! -- and make it sensible, usable, and slightly different.

Trevor Parscal

7:44 p.m.

I very much support Ori's proposal. We discussed it at length during the product retreat and I think we can easily avoid the pitfall Jarred is being cautious about by simply making a few configurable parameters for the skin default to one value, but be deployed on our sites using another. This also gives us the ability to adjust the branding of the theme between sites. Again - this would be subtle, but we know that people get confused as to which site they are on when navigating between WP and Commons for instance. Finally, these "configurations" could possibly later be adjusted by admins using a special page. Wordpress themes often allow key theme colors to be adjusted this way, and people actually do customize their themes quite often, further increasing the effective diversity of MediaWiki skins throughout the internet, helping to prevent our brand from being watered down as it to some degree today. - Trevor On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Ori Livneh <ori(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Jared Zimmerman <jzimmerman(a)wikimedia.org

wrote:

I'm a little torn on this. If skins evolve within Wikipedia (and foundation projects) but not on mediawiki core I won't feel like we're putting out a good product.

Jon Robson

7:49 p.m.

So.. what do we need to do, to do this? On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Trevor Parscal <tparscal(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Jared Zimmerman <jzimmerman(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

I'm a little torn on this. If skins evolve within Wikipedia (and foundation projects) but not on mediawiki core I won't feel like we're putting out a good product.

_______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

Trevor Parscal

7:59 p.m.

SASS in ResourceLoader would nice, but requires bundling https://github.com/richthegeek/phpsass with MediaWiki. In the mean time we could have a ResourceLoader module for Vector that is generated (like the way we generate CSS modules for user preferences) and bundled with the existing vector CSS. Since we want to evolve Vector, the visual elements that differ between deployment and default may change over time, but for now I would suggest that the blue lines are fairly distinctive and could perhaps be adjusted pretty easily for the main skin. Perhaps we should come up with a general purpose theme parameters configuration or class or something to control the values. - Trevor On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jon Robson <jrobson(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

So.. what do we need to do, to do this? On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Trevor Parscal <tparscal(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

I very much support Ori's proposal. We discussed it at length during the product retreat and I think we can easily avoid the pitfall Jarred is

being

cautious about by simply making a few configurable parameters for the

skin

default to one value, but be deployed on our sites using another. This also gives us the ability to adjust the branding of the theme

between

sites. Again - this would be subtle, but we know that people get

confused as

to which site they are on when navigating between WP and Commons for instance. Finally, these "configurations" could possibly later be adjusted by

admins

using a special page. Wordpress themes often allow key theme colors to be adjusted this way, and people actually do customize their themes quite often, further increasing the effective diversity of MediaWiki skins throughout the internet, helping to prevent our brand from being watered down as it to some degree today. - Trevor On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Ori Livneh <ori(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Jared Zimmerman > <jzimmerman(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: >> >> I'm a little torn on this. If skins evolve within Wikipedia (and >> foundation projects) but not on mediawiki core I won't feel like we're >> putting out a good product. > > > I know what you mean, but what I'm calling for is really minimal:

identify

> a UI feature which that could be usable and attractive in two variants

(like

> two different shades of grey for the background of the Vector sidebar),

and

> choose one for the default for core, and the other for Wikipedia. You

can

> include the Wikipedia-specific style in core; just gate it with a > configuration variable. Most third-party MediaWiki instances aren't

styled

> the way they're styled because their administrators wanted to mimic > Wikipedia, but rather because they find the defaults sensible and

useable

> and didn't want to fuss with things. We should continue to provide

defaults

that are sensible and usable, but we should pick one -- just one! -- and make it sensible, usable, and slightly different. _______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

_______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

Jon Robson

8:02 p.m.

Someone really needs to create that RFC for Less/SASS support (and we need to decide which to go with). I think using such a thing would make all this and more so much easier.. Any takers? I would but I've got a busy week before I disappear on vacation on Friday... On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Trevor Parscal <tparscal(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

So.. what do we need to do, to do this? On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Trevor Parscal <tparscal(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Jared Zimmerman <jzimmerman(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: > > I'm a little torn on this. If skins evolve within Wikipedia (and > foundation projects) but not on mediawiki core I won't feel like we're > putting out a good product. I know what you mean, but what I'm calling for is really minimal: identify a UI feature which that could be usable and attractive in two variants (like two different shades of grey for the background of the Vector sidebar), and choose one for the default for core, and the other for Wikipedia. You can include the Wikipedia-specific style in core; just gate it with a configuration variable. Most third-party MediaWiki instances aren't styled the way they're styled because their administrators wanted to mimic Wikipedia, but rather because they find the defaults sensible and useable and didn't want to fuss with things. We should continue to provide defaults that are sensible and usable, but we should pick one -- just one! -- and make it sensible, usable, and slightly different. _______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

_______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

Nick White

8:07 p.m.

I agree with the others in this thread, it seems like a great idea. A little extension in the default install with which one can change some base colours sounds like a good idea too. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:49:28AM -0700, Jon Robson wrote:

...

So.. what do we need to do, to do this?

I'd guess that would be best discussed at the bug: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

Heather Walls

8:34 p.m.

Hi all, I shared this thread with Jay Walsh, as maintaining the various brand identities rests in many ways with him, so I thought he might be interested or able to add to this discussion. It's quite interesting and has potential. Thanks!! Heather Can someone add Jay to the list, or is this a public add-yourself situation? On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Nick White <nick.white(a)durham.ac.uk>wrote;wrote:

...

So.. what do we need to do, to do this?

I'd guess that would be best discussed at the bug: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912 _______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

-- Heather Walls + Communications Design Manager + Wikimedia Foundation

Steven Walling

8:35 p.m.

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Heather Walls <hwalls(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:

...

Can someone add Jay to the list, or is this a public add-yourself situation?

Anyone can subscribe at https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design -- Steven Walling https://wikimediafoundation.org/

Mathieu Stumpf

1:18 p.m.

That's really interesting, could you give me more references on visual identity guidelines? I'm currently working on the french wikiversity design, where a lot a "emphase box" are used. The help page [1] will give you an idea of how they look. I already began to switch some of them to a new theme[2] I designed and that the community accepted (they only reduced the icon size). But now I think that the whole "box everywhere" thing was not the way to go, so I made a new proposition[3] which only use a left dark margin and a simple icon, like those from the noun project. I'm waiting comunity feedback on this proposition, and even if it's targeted to the french wikiversity, feel free to provide me some. You probably don't need to understand french to have a look and have an opinion. ;) [1] https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Aide:Liste_des_mod%C3%A8les_de_cadres [2] https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Mod%C3%A8le:Emphase [2] https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Projet:Wikiversit%C3%A9/Refonte_des_mod%C3%… https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Projet:Wikiversit%C3%A9/Refonte_des_mod%C3%… Le 2013-07-24 00:30, Ori Livneh a écrit :

...

Flagging this bug for the folks on this list: "Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default" https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912 [1] To be clear, I know about ongoing work to develop and implement visual identity guidelines. The bug above is related but much narrower in scope, referring specifically to a problem incurred as a side-effect of the popularity of MediaWiki as a platform. --- Ori Livneh ori(a)wikimedia.org Links: ------ [1] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912 _______________________________________________ Design mailing list Design(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

-- Association Culture-Libre http://www.culture-libre.org/

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participants (8)

Heather Walls
Jared Zimmerman
Jon Robson
Mathieu Stumpf
Nick White
Ori Livneh
Steven Walling
Trevor Parscal