On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 4:12 PM, Greg Grossmeier <greg@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> This is the sticking point. You've basically admitted that the problem is
> the *possible* *appearance* that we're "promoting" unfree software. Not
> that we're actually depending on or delivering unfree software.

Not possible. Real.

We are listing non-free fonts in our CSS. Full stop.

My argument is that doing that matters. It's not irrational.

But who will we possibly be promoting non-free fonts to? End users, who already bought and paid for them? Developers, who should know how CSS works?

You're not demonstrating real harm here. We rely on free software for MediaWiki/Wikimedia because we must. Because otherwise we can't fulfill our mission. How does this, in the short or long run, demonstrably impair our ability to fulfill our mission? 
 

> The idea that we're somehow widely and officially promoting unfree software
> here is frankly a gut reaction that is not supported in fact. Users will
> need to inspect our CSS in order to even view the font settings. Most users
> do not know how to do this. For those that do (i.e. programmers), they
> should know well enough that CSS means we are not delivering un-free
> software, but rather doing what almost every site without webfonts does.
> That is: listing a font stack that is appropriate for users of many
> platforms, free and unfree, mobile and desktop.

...that only benefits Apple OS users.

Let's be clear on that point, please.

That is not true at all. Again, you're completely ignoring almost the entirety of the typography refresh except for this one line of CSS, including the fact that it means that our mobile and desktop interfaces will have a single consistent reading experience. As you said, "I haven't sat down and really studied the difference" between the beta feature and the current settings. 

--
Steven Walling,
Product Manager