On 10/6/22 23:16, Andrew Bogott wrote:
> I'm definitely interested in talking and thinking about this more. I
> think it is true that the cloud services staff have started coordinating
> more frequently in video calls, so your comment is a useful reminder
> that we need to redouble our efforts on post-call documentation.

I'll start with the disclaimer that I'm very much involved the
infrastructure side of WMCS. Others in a different position, for example
those using our "products" may have different views, and I'd be curious
to hear them.

I'd also like to make it clear that I'm not angry about a single
decision or person. Most of this has been in my mind for a while now,
and Lucas wondering about the current status of the grid engine made me
realize that I should probably voice these concerns so that we can do
something about it. I'm happy to see that others care about these points
too.

> Are there other topics, decisions, or work areas that have recently
> vanished behind the curtain? And, if so, do you have thoughts about how
> we can be better?

I feel like that for quite a few projects, the actual technical work is
tracked publicly in Phabricator, but the planning and roadmapping
process is happening behind the scenes. The grid engine deprecation and
build pack stuff are both good examples of this.

The work on Magnum (k8s-as-a-service) also falls in this category I
think. I know that there's work going on to make Magnum available to
Cloud VPS users, but I don't know if that's intended to be used by
non-WMCS managed projects or if there are plans to move PAWS or
Toolforge to use it. (I'm initially very skeptical to moving Toolforge
off the current kubeadm setup for various reasons, which I'm happy to
talk about separately.)

I'm also going to use this opportunity to note that there is WMCS work
going on which isn't problematic in this sense. For example, the very
recent work to replace the cloudnet hardware is very easy to follow. For
example comments like https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T319300#8285959
are very helpful.

> As a team we definitely aspire to do essentially all of our work in
> public view, but lately I've been struggling a bit with what exactly
> that should mean. Communication channels proliferate and everyone seems
> to only get a 30% view of what's happening depending on which feeds they
> follow. A good example is Arturo's blog posts about Toolforge futures[0]
> which are quite effective as /potential/ communication but may not have
> actually reached the eyes most in need of an update.
>
> [0] https://techblog.wikimedia.org/2022/03/14/toolforge-and-grid-engine/

This is a good question. I'm *not* advocating for a model where there
are no private meetings or Slack groups or stuff like that. I would like
to be aware that meetings are happening so that I can provide context on
matters I'm familiar with or voice my opinions when I have those for
certain approaches. I also would like to be aware of major decisions,
especially if they affect projects I'm working on.

As a final note, I've been referring to the #wikimedia-cloud-admin IRC
channel and the cloud-admin mailing list as public venues. While
technically true (the IRC channel and the mailing list archives are
public), I don't think those are mentioned anywhere on Wikitech and
cloud-admin subscription is moderated for non-staff (and I have a vague
memory of my subscription being rejected before I had Toolforge admin
access). I think there's some work to be done here to make it easier for
people to get involved.

Taavi

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