That is very true, Louis!

But remember, the goal is not to write arbitrary applications. In order to write an actual full-fledged application there is still a lot of packaging to do: UX, state, persistence, etc. -- all things we will not look at.

Does this limit us in what we can achieve? Yes, absolutely. But our primary goal is not to provide an application building and hosting platform. Our primary goal is to provide a system to extend the coverage in the Wikipedias. For this, we will also provide the missing pieces of product development. But for using the functions of Wikilambda in other contexts, well, for that there will still be more needed.

Wikilambda won't replace apps, and does not intend to. But having a collaborative repository of functions will still provide a lot of interesting use cases, even with this restriction.

But thanks for clarifying the limits of the current plan, this is super helpful!
Denny

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 8:31 AM Louis Lecailliez <louis.lecailliez@outlook.fr> wrote:
Hi all,

The largest issue I see with Wikilambda is conceptual: sure a Wiki of functions would be nice. However, a real code base is not made of pure, generic functions such as "addition" or "concatenation". Let's have a look at a function I just picked from one of my open text editors. Its signature (C#) is:
void WriteSignedJsonFile(string path, string content, string publicKey, string signature)

This create a JSON file on the filesystem with a very specific format and values. This function is 100% useless in any other project. The thing is, most code is glue between functions, and most have quite specialized use. In this regard, a Wiki a functions doesn't sound super useful because:
1. For a generic task (say parsing XML) a specialized library in the language one is programming in will be more easy to use
2. The core code as well as glue code of a project is not transferable to other projects

Abstract Wikipedia will need very specialized data structures. I will need very specialized code too. The reusability of this code in unrelated projects will tend towards zero.

Best regards,
Louis Lecailliez

De : Abstract-Wikipedia <abstract-wikipedia-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org> de la part de Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>
Envoyé : jeudi 16 juillet 2020 12:17
À : General public mailing list for the discussion of Abstract Wikipedia (aka Wikilambda) <abstract-wikipedia@lists.wikimedia.org>
Objet : Re: [Abstract-wikipedia] Wiki of functions (was Re: Runtime considerations: Introducing GraalEneyj)
 

‫בתאריך יום ה׳, 16 ביולי 2020 ב-6:23 מאת ‪Denny Vrandečić‬‏ <‪dvrandecic@wikimedia.org‬‏>:‬
Amir, when I say function I mean a computation that accepts an input and returns an output. That differs, for example, from Lua modules, which are basically a small library of functions and helpers. We're also starting with no side-effects and referential transparency, because we're boring, and leave that for a bit later.

But you see, that's exactly the problem: This may be clear to people who learned about side effects, composition, and referential transparency in the university for their Computer Science or Mathematics degrees, but I strongly suspect that most editors of Wikimedia projects didn't learn about these things.

If the project only wants contributors with CS degrees or comparable knowledge, then it's fine to do it completely differently from a wiki, and more like a software development project: with Git, with rigorous code review, and so on. Maybe the eventual result will be better if it's done this way. But don't expect the size and the diversity of the Wikimedia community, and don't expect that it will be easy to integrate the functions' output into Wikipedia. Maybe it will _possible_, but it won't be easy.

But if the intention is to let the large and diverse Wikimedia community edit it, then from the outset, this project needs to speak in terms that this large community understands.
This community understands the following things:
* what is an encyclopedia, and what are notability, reliability, original research, etc.
* wiki pages and wikitext (links, headings, categories, references, files)
* a relatively large part of this community understands structured data in the form of Wikidata
* a relatively large part of this community understands templates (at least how to add them to pages, though not necessarily how to create them)
* a smaller, but still relatively large and multi-lingual group understands Scribunto modules

It's totally fine to introduce new concepts or to upgrade existing ones, but it has to start from something familiar. Jumping straight into composition, side effects, and Z objects is too cryptic.
 
So, there will be wikipages that represent such a function. So on one page we would say, "so, there's this function, in English it is called concatenate, it takes two strings and returns one, and it does this". Admittedly, not a very complicated function, but quite useful.

Sorry, but I still don't understand how is this different from making the following Scribunto module:

local p = {}

function p.concat(frame)
    return frame.args[1] .. frame.args[2]
end

return p

I've read through the walkthrough at https://github.com/google/abstracttext/blob/master/eneyj/docs/walkthrough.md , and at most, I can see that the Z objects are a programming-language-independent abstract representation of the code's interface. But _eventually_, there is code at the bottom, isn't there? And is that code fundamentally different from a Scribunto module?
 
Then we might have several implementations for this function, for example in different programming languages, we also might have tests for this function. All implementations should always behave exactly the same. An evaluation engine decides which implementations it wants to use (and, for the result it shouldn't matter because they all should behave the same), but some engines might prefer to run the JavaScript implementations, others might run Python, others might decide "oh, wait, I am composing two different functions together in order to get to a result, maybe it is smarter if I pick two implementations with the same language, as I actually can compile that into a single call beforehand", etc. There are plenty of possibilities to improve and optimize evaluation engines, and if you were asking me to dream I'd say I am seeing a vibrant ecosystem of evaluation engines from different providers, running in vastly different contexts, from the local browser to an open source peer-to-peer distributed computing project.

But Scribunto can also support multiple programming languages. In practice it supports only Lua at the moment, but in theory more languages like JavaScript and Python could be added. (It's an old and pretty popular community wish.)

So, is a conceptually new infrastructure really needed, and are functions really different from modules? "Scribunto is not scalable for such an ambitious project" would be an acceptable answer, but I'd love to know whether this was at least considered.
 
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