[Wikipedia-l] Apropos:moldovia

Tue Jul 4 16:53:44 UTC 2006

Jacky,

just for me to be clear on a few details about the "native speaker" issue:
pls answer just yes/no to 1) then follow the instructions.
1) you mean a special policy for MO-only should be inforced? (yes/no)
2) if you answered no to 1), could you please tell me where are we going to
find the native speakers that would justify the existence of a latin
wikipedia? (just a nation name here, they must be "natives", that is, born
in families were ancient latin is spoken as a first language)
3) if answered yes to 1), can you quote *any* contemporary law, in which a
punitive measure is said to apply to *only* one person/institution?
(country, law code, article name, comma)

Answer to this and we shall finally have some real data stated.

>I fully subscribe to the analysis of Berto. And I
>mean *fully*.
Thanks, I take your word on it. :) My analysis also called for an immediate
ban of everybody just even mentioning "national feelings" as a decision
making criteria. So that means you agree on that, too. Now, will you please
reread the whole thread and tell me how many people from BOTH sides should
have their IPs banned forever, according to the proposal you just kindly
supported? Pls also state who was the author of the "violation" and cut and
paste the relevant text, so you and I can copy the Board with the result and
ask disciplinary measures to be enforced ASAP. I'd love people from both
sides to join this call, seriously. It would show that excess is not a rule
for both editions.

Not that I am seriously expecting this to happen... It would take a
braveness and constructive aim that I don't really see in *any* point of
this discussion. You know what will happen? You all will either
a) start to polemise with me and to figure out that I am some sort of "awful
enemy". Or
b) you will simply tell me that I am right once again, then you'll go on
fighting each other as nothing ever happened.

Wanna bet some money? :) You can pay with western-union :) Say 100 euro for
a start? :)))))))))))
Bèrto

----- Исходное сообщение ----- 
От: "Jacky PB" <dpotop1 at yahoo.com>
Кому: <wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org>
Отправлено: 4 июля 2006 г. 16:56
Тема: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Apropos:moldovia

And given this analysis, the question you should ask
yourselves is: Are there *any* Moldovans interested in
this cyrillic script here on wikipedia?

If not, this non-partisan analysis tells us that
mo.wikipedia is just another political tool in a dirty
war.

:en:Dpotop

--- Berto <albertoserra at ukr.net> wrote:

> Now... I live in Kiev, I am NOT ethnically russian,
> slavian or whatever, and
> I could not care less for anyone's national
> feelings. Actually I suppose the
> NPOV policy should simply BAN anyone even just
> mentioning them as a decision
> criteria. If politics are allowed to be a decision
> criteria, then you can
> expect a LOT of such quarrels coming up. We all have
> political opinions, and
> I cannot think of any country in in this planet that
> has never had pretty
> good reasons for them to feel offended by (at the
> very least) some of their
> neighbouring peoples, religions, cultures, scripts,
> miniskirts,
> trolleybuses, etc. Do you want to open this
> pandora's box? Go on. Only pls
> rename this list into Wikipedia-h (H is for
> hooligans), because that's what
> it's going to be.
>
> So... living here I meet a number of moldavian (not
> transdnistrian)
> residents on the net. Bear in mind, I say
> *residents* because I simply do
> not give a damn about their blood, religion, DNA,
> etc. And I believe that
> nobody should. This people speak BOTH russian and
> moldavian. Since my use of
> rumenian languages is limited (I speak IT-4, which
> is enough to read most
> RO, but definitely not enough to write even just at
> RO-1), I usually use my
> RU-3 with them. And it works perfectly. Now, RU-3
> happens to be written in
> cyrillic and so are most of their answers, too (just
> a small number of them
> using a latin transliteration). Which in turn means
> that they either use a
> russian interface or type by some sort of charmap.
>
> I read enough *weird* reports about Ukraine at the
> time of the "orange
> revolution" to know how western journalists that
> come here should be valued.
> It really depends on which side of the conflict buys
> them sex partners, wine
> etc. In the most honest cases they sincerely believe
> to what their
> translators tell them, but simply do not have any
> way for them to check
> anything of what they are told. Such western reports
> have supported all
> possible conflicting sides in regional hot spots in
> the recent past, mostly
> because of this. So I'm really asking myself whether
> the press should be
> used as a source, when contemporary politics are
> even remotely a part of the
> issue. Reality is usually much wider and more
> complex than the canonic 8.000
> symbols a redactor is giving to his journalists for
> them to describe an
> event.
>
> I  don't mean to offend BBC's reputation, actually
> they are one of my
> favourite and most reliable news sources. I simply
> wonder whether the news
> *as such* can be used to make a decision at all, no
> matter what the source.
> After some 6 years in eastern Europe I came to
> understand that most of what
> we think of it is simply absurd. It is actually
> impossible to judge a
> foreign culture unless you dont' spend *many* years
> in it.
>
> From all practical POVs, moldavians of all kinds do
> know cyrillic scripting.
> This is because of the trade they have with Ukraine
> and Russia, that are
> ONLY using cyrillic script(s). The situation will
> only get to a further
> integration into using cyrillic once Rumenia steps
> in the EU and more strict
> border checking between Rumenia and Moldavia will be
> in place. Many
> moldavian products already bear mixed latin/cyrillic
> labels for them to be
> easily exported here (wine, mainly). The most world
> wide known moldavian
> band (Zdub si zdob, I believe BTW, they are GREAT)
> made a fortune by singing
> (also) russian songs and maintains an internet site
> in both russian and
> moldavian. So it's simply absurd to claim that one
> of the two scripts (no
> matter which one) could be unknown to the locals,
> who definitely have much
> more urgent life problems than writing a wiki, but
> undoubtedly do trade and
> listen to the radio.
>
> Choosing a script or another is mainly a thing at
> official level, a thing
> dealing with politics only. In reality, people will
> simply use them both, no
> matter what the local war games end up in deciding,
> because BOTH are needed
> in practical and economical life, and even the most
> radical guys need money
> to make a living. Same applies to the (many)
> rumenian minorities in Ukraine.
> From a practical POV having a latin script is nice
> for bringing people
> closer to the undisputable source of the rumenian
> culture, that is Rumenia.
> But on the other hand there are many minorities in
> Ukraine that never really
> had a formal instruction in the latin script (and
> probably never will), but
> still speak some rumenian dialect. And the only
> script they can manage is
> ukrainian and russian cyrillic.
>
> My fivepence worth, because I got to understand that
> most people in here
> simply does not know what the issue is about. And as
> long as we deal with
> facts and information on cold NPOV basis I am happy
> to help. IMHO the sooner
> we manage to detach geopolitics from languages, and
> get to speak about
> content accessibility in instead, the better we will
> work.
>
> BÃ¨rto
>
> ----- Ð~ÑÑ.Ð¾Ð´Ð½Ð¾Ðµ ÑÐ¾Ð¾Ð±Ñ?ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ðµ ----- 
> ÐzÑ,: "ScottL" <scott at mu.org>
> ÐsÐ¾Ð¼Ñf: <wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org>
> ÐzÑ,Ð¿Ñ?Ð°Ð²Ð»ÐµÐ½Ð¾: 4 Ð¸ÑZÐ»Ñ 2006 Ð³. 15:07
> Ð¢ÐµÐ¼Ð°: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Where are the decision
> makers?
>
>
>    From the BBC article posted way way back on this
> thread it appears
> that the schools for ethnically Moldavian children
> in Transdniester
> actually use the Latin script if they can, and some
> times they do it
> when they are officially being persecuted.  At least
> that is what the
> article said.  As far as I can tell the
> (non-moldavian speaking) people
> in power are trying (unsuccessfully) to impose this
> script.  Now it
> probably is likely older people in the region still
> use it and its
> probably in public use but I am not sure you can say
> that its in many
> schools. At least not to a point where students are
> learning it to the
> exclusion of the Latin based script.
>
> SKL
>
> Mark Williamson wrote:
> > It incorrectly represents Moldova? Come on!
> >
> > Wikipedia uses language as a MEDIUM. If somebody
> wants to know about
> > the language, they would go to
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_language or
> > http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldau or whichever
> language they speak
> > article.
> >
> > They will NOT go to mo.wikipedia.
> >
> > And you are clearly not in touch with reality. In
> schools east of the
> > Dniestr river, which teach Moldovan, the Cyrillic
> alphabet is taught.
> > This fact is a fact and you cannot contest it.
> This is the usual
> > script.
> >
> > Now, unless you want to challenge the territorial
> integrity of
> > Moldova, it seems reasonable to accept that
> Moldova is, in fact, a
> > biscriptal nation.
> >
> > As Gerard noted, mo-cyr is not acceptable because
> it violates conventions.
> >
> > Mark
>
=== message truncated ===

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