[Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low Saxon (nds-nl)

[Mark Williamson]

For more on Missingsch, please see
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missingsch or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missingsch

Mark

On 25/06/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> From Rohn.
> 
> And he *is* a native speaker.
> 
> Mark
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Date: 25-Jun-2005 21:41
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low Saxon (nds-nl)
> To: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
> 
> --- Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > (forwarded to Reinhart (Ron) Hahn to get his opinion)
> >
> > [Some basic background on the issue for Ron: As you know there is
> > already a Low Saxon Wikipedia. Somebody just requested a "Dutch Low
> > Saxon" Wikipedia, complaining that nds.wiki is in "German Low Saxon".
> > I expressed a few concerns, not least among them that in a case of a
> > dialect continuum, it will be difficult for us to decide where to draw
> > lines between varieties, and which varieties should get their own
> > Wikipedias.]
> >
> > Concerns that nobody has responded to yet:
> >
> > * As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum. Stellingwarfs and
> > Middel-pommersch are surely not easily mutually intelligible, but
> > Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
> >
> > * Dividing Platt along national boundaries is illogical. If we had an
> > Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely understand it
> > and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands and
> > Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany. There are no definite borders between
> > one and the next, and the national border is just as arbitrary as any.
> >
> > This would also mean that a man from the tiny village of Laar (in
> > Germany) would use a different Wikipedia than a man from the tiny
> > village of Gramsbergen (in the Netherlands), even though they're about
> > 4km (~2.5mi) apart and their speech is identical. Does this make much
> > sense?
> >
> > * A case of a dialect continuum is a very new thing for us. We have no
> > experience with it so far, or we have crammed them all into a single
> > Wikipedia.
> >
> > Mark
> 
> Hi, Mark!
> 
> Thanks for forwarding this.  It all makes a lot of sense to me.
> 
> I would find it very regrettable if the language were separated along the
> political border, though I know quite a few people that would welcome it.
> 
> In the case of Low Saxon, what is at the root of the problem is
> orthography.  In Germany it is based on German principles, in the
> Netherlands on Dutch principles.  While most people in the Netherlands
> have some German, the Dutch-based system is quite incomprehensible to the
> majority of people in Germany.  However, this is not to say that the
> German-based system ought to be used.  I personally hate it for several
> reasons, and I am not alone.  It is not emotional but because the system
> is very poorly suited, does not make many necessary phonemic distinctions
> and thus teaches learners faulty pronunciation, which it has done already.
>  However, this is a very contentious issue, because the vast majority of
> Low Saxon speakers are older, conservative and narrow-minded, plus
> uneducated in anything linguistic, hanging on to myths and false
> assumption, such as orthographic standardization being designed to
> artificially created a single standard language, when orthographic
> standardization has nothing to do with language standardization, only with
> facilitating mutual reading comprehension.  So we are up against a monster
> here.
> 
> It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current
> WikiPlatt team.  Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that.  But they
> don't know the language well enough.  Much or most of it is "Patentplatt"
> (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of German.  I am not at
> all opposed to introducing technical neologisms, but there needs to be
> first of all a firm grasp of the basic language, the grammar and the
> authentic idiom.
> 
> It would be best -- if doable -- to have an international team work on
> this and use a type of compromise orthography that is easily accessible to
> all.
> 
> Thanks for your engagement in all of this.
> 
> Regards,
> Ron
> 
> Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
> Seattle, USA
> ==========
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-- 
SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE