[Wikipedia-l] Re: you do not have to be positive

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Even though there is nothing in what I wrote to Ray privately that I 
could not or would not write publicly, I object to his publishing my 
mail to him publicly to the list. It is in my mind extremely rude to 
publish this. The reason why I mailed him privately is because there is 
no point in continuing this conversation on the list. There is nothing 
new being said. It is a waste of time for people on this list.

I wrote Ray to make sure that he knows that THIS is the time to 
cooperate on the ideas of the UW. When he waits untill the UW has been 
programmed, all the decisions will have been made and there will be 
technically little left room to change it. That will be the time when we 
will start populating UW with data. Ray's insistence to wait untill it 
is too late is totally unproductive. His arguments are not constructive 
as they do not point to anything that would improve what UW may be/ may 
do. This is found in his use of words like "hyperbolic" or "hidden agenda".

When I say that new people will join us in the UW, he sees it as proof 
of a hidden agenda. Wake up Ray, on the agenda IS the functionality of 
UW. Some people can see what is in front of their eyes. When the GFDL is 
a hindrance for adding functionality of our projects, the WMF has a 
history of taking that into account. Wikinews is not GFDL because it 
prevents WN from having the functionality that it wants. At this time 
there are functionalities for the UW where the GFDL is a handicap. This 
leaves two options: forgo the funcionality or work on the license. As 
the UW does not have any data yet, the time to have finished this 
discussion is clear: the start of including data in the UW or the moment 
that Ray would start to have his first look.

Ray's understanding of Dutch schools is 100% wrong. Almost all schools 
are state funded. For parents it makes almost no difference what school 
they send their children to. Schools are obligated to take all children. 
There is no room for "intelligent design" in the Dutch secondary 
schools; evolution and genetics are part of the Biology curriculum.

To conclude: my apologies to the list. I had hoped to have continued 
this conversation off-line. And as to Mark, I have mailed him privately 
on more than one occassion. The only excuse I have to post it is that it 
gives me the opportunity to explain that this is the time to become 
involved in what UW will be. When the UW is life it will be time to get 
involved in what UW has become.

Thanks,
    GerardM

Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Gerard saw fit to send these comments privately.  In the spirit if 
> wiki-openness I thought it best to reply publicly.  There is nothing 
> in my views about his proposals that cannot be discussed in the open.
>
> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> Ray,
>> I would like to know what you hope to achieve with the rubbishing you 
>> are doing of the Ultimate Wiktionary. 
>
>
> Since when are honest comments "rubbishing"
>
>> It has a huge potential and the only way I can categorise your 
>> "contributions" is as a FUD treatment. I would really like you to use 
>> arguments. I would really like to know what you hope to achieve this 
>> way. The way you make me feel is that I am some shady car dealer that 
>> is waiting for this 1000th carsale that will make him his bonus. 
>
>
> You said it. :-)   I can't see how my comments could be anything but 
> arguments in the sense that you apparently mean.
>
>> Lucky for me I know better. I do appreciate what Erik is doing, we 
>> both realise that our reputation will suffer when we do not come up 
>> with some goods. I am sure that the initial UW will not have all the 
>> trimmings. 
>
>
> Nothing to debate there.
>
>> That does not take away from the basic fact that the UW will have a 
>> better usability than any of the Wiktionaries ever will. It will, 
>> because the functionality is built with synergy and community in the 
>> forefront of what it is about and it will because it is meant to host 
>> lexicological content. 
>
>
> This is pure speculation.  I leave myself open to that possibility, 
> but I'll keep on with what I'm doing until there's something to judge. 
> Certainly I'm not going to fall in line with your hyperbolic 
> confidence about the future of UW without seeing it.  I can easily see 
> the value of a project that ties the different Wiktionaries together, 
> but I cannot be so credulous as to believe that it will be so great as 
> to inspire everyone to abandon what they are doing to work with your 
> project.
>
>> The argument about communities of Mark Williamson is silly, the 
>> wikimedia community does evolve and, the community that is growing 
>> around the Ultimate Wiktionary will be different from any of the 
>> Wikimedia communities. 
>
>
> Since you have mentioned Mark, it is only fitting that I should 
> forward a copy of these comments directly to him.  I have in the past 
> objected to some of his points of view, but such comments have always 
> been to him rather than around him.  If you think that he is being 
> silly tell him about it, not me.
>
>> Many new people will make it their own, people who have no background 
>> in Wikipedia, people that do not think a Wiki is the best thing there 
>> is. 
>
>
> So there's more to your project than the Wiki community!  You have in 
> the past made it clear that you would like the GFDL replaced.  If, 
> just for example, someone were contemplating a fork compliance with 
> that licence could be an embarassment.
>
>> People who are very much aware of what language technology is. People 
>> with a solid reputation outside the Wikimedia world. 
>
>
> Am I supposed to be impressed by these statements?  Or is there a 
> hidden agenda?  A company that funds educational research in the 
> Netherlands does so in a completely different environment than in most 
> countries given that Holland has by far the greatest proportion of 
> privatization of schools in the world.
>
>> I hope that you will become part of the UW crowd. It is as always 
>> your choise...
>
>
> Of course it's my choice, and I will certainly be willing to look at 
> UW objectively ... when it is released to the public.
>
> Ec
>
>