[Wikipedia-l] Re: you do not have to be positive

[Ray Saintonge]

Gerard saw fit to send these comments privately.  In the spirit if 
wiki-openness I thought it best to reply publicly.  There is nothing in 
my views about his proposals that cannot be discussed in the open.

Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Ray,
> I would like to know what you hope to achieve with the rubbishing you 
> are doing of the Ultimate Wiktionary. 

Since when are honest comments "rubbishing"

> It has a huge potential and the only way I can categorise your 
> "contributions" is as a FUD treatment. I would really like you to use 
> arguments. I would really like to know what you hope to achieve this 
> way. The way you make me feel is that I am some shady car dealer that 
> is waiting for this 1000th carsale that will make him his bonus. 

You said it. :-)   I can't see how my comments could be anything but 
arguments in the sense that you apparently mean.

> Lucky for me I know better. I do appreciate what Erik is doing, we 
> both realise that our reputation will suffer when we do not come up 
> with some goods. I am sure that the initial UW will not have all the 
> trimmings. 

Nothing to debate there.

> That does not take away from the basic fact that the UW will have a 
> better usability than any of the Wiktionaries ever will. It will, 
> because the functionality is built with synergy and community in the 
> forefront of what it is about and it will because it is meant to host 
> lexicological content. 

This is pure speculation.  I leave myself open to that possibility, but 
I'll keep on with what I'm doing until there's something to judge. 
Certainly I'm not going to fall in line with your hyperbolic confidence 
about the future of UW without seeing it.  I can easily see the value of 
a project that ties the different Wiktionaries together, but I cannot be 
so credulous as to believe that it will be so great as to inspire 
everyone to abandon what they are doing to work with your project.

> The argument about communities of Mark Williamson is silly, the 
> wikimedia community does evolve and, the community that is growing 
> around the Ultimate Wiktionary will be different from any of the 
> Wikimedia communities. 

Since you have mentioned Mark, it is only fitting that I should forward 
a copy of these comments directly to him.  I have in the past objected 
to some of his points of view, but such comments have always been to him 
rather than around him.  If you think that he is being silly tell him 
about it, not me.

> Many new people will make it their own, people who have no background 
> in Wikipedia, people that do not think a Wiki is the best thing there is. 

So there's more to your project than the Wiki community!  You have in 
the past made it clear that you would like the GFDL replaced.  If, just 
for example, someone were contemplating a fork compliance with that 
licence could be an embarassment.

> People who are very much aware of what language technology is. People 
> with a solid reputation outside the Wikimedia world. 

Am I supposed to be impressed by these statements?  Or is there a hidden 
agenda?  A company that funds educational research in the Netherlands 
does so in a completely different environment than in most countries 
given that Holland has by far the greatest proportion of privatization 
of schools in the world. 

> I hope that you will become part of the UW crowd. It is as always your 
> choise...

Of course it's my choice, and I will certainly be willing to look at UW 
objectively ... when it is released to the public.

Ec