Hi Shiju, <div>Thanks for sharing this. This is great. However the link for Nepali should have been </div><div><a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Nepali/Discussions/2011">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Nepali/Discussions/2011</a></div>
<div>which might have been misspelled.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks Shiju for the excellent work. <br><div><div><br></div><div>Cheers, </div><div>Rajesh Pandey</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parakara.ghoda@gmail.com">parakara.ghoda@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Excellent Shiju, very well written. I hope the community will learn a<br>
lot from your research and surveys and use them in a positive manner<br>
to ensure that our local indic Wiki projects are in as good health as<br>
English, French, Spanish, etc.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
On 12/16/11, Shiju Alex <<a href="mailto:shiju@wikimedia.org">shiju@wikimedia.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> Dear All,<br>
><br>
> Apologies beforehand for a rather long and winding mail - but there is so<br>
> much that I want to say. I want to share how my thoughts are being<br>
> crystallised. I want to try and cross-pollinate ideas from some Indic<br>
> language communities across to all communities. I want to reach out and<br>
> ask your views and suggestions. I want to understand how best we can help<br>
> each community in a manner that is most appropriate to that community.<br>
><br>
> I have now completed sharing initial, introductory, exploratory discussions<br>
> with a host of community members from across Indic language communities. I<br>
> have shared these for 12 languages<br>
</div>> (Assamese<<a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Assamese/Discussions/2011" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Assamese/Discussions/2011</a>>,<br>
> Hindi<<a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Hindi/Discussions/2011" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Hindi/Discussions/2011</a>>,<br>
> Tamil<<a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Tamil/Discussions/2011" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Tamil/Discussions/2011</a>>,<br>
> Telugu<<a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Telugu/Discussions/2011" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Telugu/Discussions/2011</a>>,<br>
> Kannada<<a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Kannada/Discussions/2011" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Kannada/Discussions/2011</a>>,<br>
> Nepali<<a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Neplai/Discussions/2011" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Neplai/Discussions/2011</a>>,<br>
> Malayalam<<a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Malayalam/Discussions/2011" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Malayalam/Discussions/2011</a>>,<br>
> Marathi<<a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Marathi/Discussions/2011" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Marathi/Discussions/2011</a>>,<br>
> Odia<<a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Odia/Discussions/2011" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Odia/Discussions/2011</a>>,<br>
> Sanskrit<<a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Sanskrit/Discussions/2011" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Sanskrit/Discussions/2011</a>>,<br>
> Bengali<<a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Bengali/Discussions/2011" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Bengali/Discussions/2011</a>>,<br>
> and<br>
> Gujarati<<a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Gujarati/Discussions/2011" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Gujarati/Discussions/2011</a>>.)<br>
<div class="im">> I haven't (yet) got any response from 7 other communities (Bhojpuri,<br>
> Kashmiri, Punjabi, Urdu, Bhisnupriya Manipuri, Pali, and Sindhi).<br>
><br>
> At the very outset, I want to thank all of you who took time out and shared<br>
> your experiences and thinking. It has been really useful and I hope you<br>
> found it is as productive and constructive as I did. The purpose behind<br>
> this exercise was to hear, learn, and understand the evolution of the<br>
> various communities - and to therefore suggest ideas going forward. I urge<br>
> everyone to go through all the other languages (even if they are not<br>
> personally involved in those specific communities) because there are<br>
> learnings for everyone from everywhere.<br>
><br>
> I have been reflecting on the various insights and inputs and ideas I have<br>
> got from all these folks as well as subsequent discussions on mailing lists<br>
> and talk pages. Here are my initial thoughts.<br>
><br>
</div>> CommunityIt sounds like a self-evident and very basic thing but the single<br>
<div class="im">> biggest priority for all communities (even relatively bigger ones like<br>
> Tamil and Malayalam) is community building. What has struck me from the<br>
> various language communities is that everyone agrees that this is very much<br>
> required but very few are aware of what needs to be done or how it needs to<br>
> be done. I wanted to share some thoughts about this.<br>
><br>
> When I consider community building, I think of 5 broad aspects:<br>
><br>
</div>> 1. Editor retention<br>
> 2. Attracting newbies<br>
> 3. Community communication<br>
> 4. Community collaboration and<br>
> 5. Community celebration<br>
<div><div class="h5">><br>
><br>
> I would like to detail what I mean by each of these.<br>
><br>
> 1. Editor retention: Like most language wiki communities we also have an<br>
> editor retention issue in all Indic language communities. This is<br>
> particularly an area of concern for us considering the fact that all our<br>
> Indic language communities are really tiny and community buiding efforts in<br>
> Indic wikis are very less. A dramatic case in point is Kannada where active<br>
> editor numbers (that is, editors who do at least 5 edits a month) have<br>
> declined from 25 members to just 9 members over the past 10 months. It is<br>
> essential that all of us reflect on why this is happening and what can be<br>
> done to avoid it in future and to resurrect lapsed editors. Existing<br>
> editors and old editors understand our projects and community and can play<br>
> a huge role in community building and project quality improvement. Many<br>
> times, they have become inactive because of changing personal priorities.<br>
> However, sometimes, they leave because they are no longer excited by the<br>
> projects. The lack of interest in a project or users not feeling proud<br>
> about a project might be due to multiple reasons. Some of the reasons that<br>
> old community members shared with me are poor quality of articles (driven<br>
> by BOTs and Google translation project), dominance of wiki by one or two<br>
> members, the huge amount of clean up and other administrative tasks<br>
> required, and so on. We must reach out and welcome these editors back and<br>
> we must encourage them to do what they love doing most - editing articles<br>
> and making them regain their pride and ownership over their articles and<br>
> projects. We must foster an environment that welcomes old editors back and<br>
> gives them the space to follow their passions.<br>
><br>
> 2. Attracting newbies: Attracting newbies is the only way our communities<br>
> and projects can grow. I have to be honest and say that none of our<br>
> language communities have achieved critical mass. According to me unless a<br>
> project has 500 or more active editors, it can never be said to be in a<br>
> state where organic growth is secured and momentum is ensured. Attracting<br>
> newbies requires impactful outreach. By impactful, I mean outreach that is<br>
> done frequently and to as a large a group of potential newbies as possible.<br>
> However, it also means that we need to be much more systematic about how we<br>
> do outreach. This covers everything from identification of the most<br>
> appropriate target audience as well as doing outreach in a manner where we<br>
> don't scare off newbies by information overload. We must make sure that<br>
> our outreach sessions adequately convey the passion and love for our<br>
> projects that we feel while working on them. Also, we need to critically<br>
> look at how we reach out to attendees of outreach sessions (after the<br>
> sessions) as well as other newcomers and see that we are providing an<br>
> adequate helping hand to them. The Nepali community - though tiny - does<br>
> very well in terms of posting personal talk messages to welcome new folks,<br>
> having FAQs spaces and problem boxes, etc. - all with the objective of<br>
> supporting newbies. All Indic languages are at a state where every single<br>
> newbie should be identified and reached out to and given intensive help and<br>
> warmly welcomed to the community. We must also look at both newbies to<br>
> editing as well as existing English Wikipedia editors who have inclinations<br>
> and abilities on Indic languages. Remember that many Indic editors<br>
> initially started off in English Wikipedia and we must actively seek them<br>
> out. I know some communities - like Marathi - who look for editors who<br>
> have Marathi sounding names or edit Marathi/Maharashtra centric topics and<br>
> quietly invite them to contribute to Marathi Wikipedia. Another aspect,<br>
> and I am sure is this a bit of a controversial statement, but can we get<br>
> few existing Indic editors to reduce their emphasis on editing and divert<br>
> their time on outreach. (I know Tamil, Odia, and Malayalam communities are<br>
> already doing this. But this needs to be replicated in other languages<br>
> also). It is really tough and not everyone might have the interest to do<br>
> outreach but the best outreach can be done by existing community members.<br>
> However, as we know, volunteer time is limited. This is a challenge<br>
> because what we love doing most is editing - but the reality is that the<br>
> greatest need of the hour, and the area where we can contribute maximum, is<br>
> attracting and training and supporting newbies. We should also look at<br>
> digital outreach - by which I mean look at the existing internet activities<br>
> in Indic languages (blog, facebook, google plus, and so on) and see if we<br>
> can get newbies from there. For instance, many Indic languages have very<br>
> active blogging. Can we reach out to bloggers and ask them to contribute to<br>
> our projects, or at least evangelise about our projects and invite their<br>
> readers to read Indic projects and contribute to them? Can we similarly<br>
> look at social media like facebook and twitter to promote our Indic<br>
> projects?<br>
><br>
> 3. Community Communication: Community communication is an area which varies<br>
> by community. There is a direct co-relation between the health and growth<br>
> of the community and the inclusiveness, intensity, and warmth of the<br>
> communication amongst that community. Community communication takes place<br>
> on mailing lists, village pumps, meetups, and so on. With the exception of<br>
> Malayalam and Bengali mailing lists, and to a lesser extent, Tamil, Odia,<br>
> Mumbai, and Pune mailing lists, most others are virtually non-functional.<br>
> Having said that, many village pumps are active across language<br>
> communities. It really doesn't make a difference whether the communication<br>
> is on mailing lists or village pumps. However, it is of paramount<br>
> importance that it happens somewhere. Anywhere! To that extent, I<br>
> encourage everyone to be more active wherever they are more comfortable -<br>
> but ideally in public spaces like village pumps or mailing lists. Reach<br>
> out and ask for help or suggestions. Offer advice or inputs. Simply be<br>
> friendly and accessible. Just talk! Community meetups are happening but<br>
> not as frequent as one would like and with very limited attendance. Often,<br>
> it is just 3 or 4 people who meet up everytime. Nothing wrong with that<br>
> per se. Meetups are voluntary and the majority of wikipedians are happy to<br>
> edit in the privacy of our homes and not meet up with others but even in<br>
> this situation, we can and should be encouraging more people to attend<br>
> meetups. People will attend meetups more regularly if they find them<br>
> productive and inspiring. Too often, the feedback from community members<br>
> has been that they don't find meetups useful or they find them dominated by<br>
> 1 or 2 individuals. It is essential to have 1 or 2 individuals with the<br>
> drive and hard work to organise meetups - but it is equally important that<br>
> meetups are not centred exclusively around these 1-2 people but more about<br>
> what the larger group want. How about meetups where all we do is spend an<br>
> hour or two just editing a few articles? How about meetups where we plan a<br>
> newbie outreach program involving everyone in the meetup? How about a<br>
> meetup where that meetup is run by those folks who usually never speak up<br>
> and that the entire meeting is devoted to what they are interested in? It<br>
> is alarming when one looks at the situation in some Indic communities where<br>
> there is virtually no communication at all amongst community members. It<br>
> leads to a very cold and impersonal environment - which is not healthy to<br>
> foster growth. Like plants and flowers, communities too need breeze and<br>
> air and water and food and activity and earthworms and manure.<br>
><br>
> 4. Community Collaboration: When I consider community collaboration, I<br>
> think of 2 things. The first is ownership and the second is editing. On<br>
> ownership, it is really critical that every one of us as individual<br>
> community members believe and are made to believe that we own our projects.<br>
> Every project is owned by all members of that community. Equally. We<br>
> should all become more proactive in enforcing this ownership - whether it<br>
> is in terms of coming up with initiatives or proactively participating in<br>
> community discussions - whether it is about technical matters or content<br>
> elements or community aspects. Every single individual counts and every<br>
> single individual's voice must be encouraged. On editing, something that<br>
> drives all of us is the thrill of collaborative editing. Wikipedians love<br>
> it more than anything else to work together on an article and make dramatic<br>
> improvements to it. Of course it happens even now, but this is something<br>
> that we need to encourage much more and participate more actively in. This<br>
> can be done in varied ways - but ideas like Collaboration of the Month or<br>
> Editathons or whatever other idea should be organised. One can start with<br>
> a handful of people working on a few articles - but one must try as hard as<br>
> one can to make larger scale mini-events around this basic idea. It will<br>
> help build personal relationships, project ownership, and drive community<br>
> bonds.<br>
><br>
> 5. Community Celebration: Lastly on the community aspect, let us bring some<br>
> magic back to the community. Let us start celebrating successes - no<br>
> matter how small. Let us start taking goals - no matter how seemingly<br>
> unambitious. Let us spread cheer all around when we meet these objectives.<br>
> Let us start publicly celebrating over the profiles of new or active<br>
> editors (Tamil wiki community is already doing this)- whether because they<br>
> are 12 years old or 80 years old or whether their article counts are 100 or<br>
> 10,000! Let us celebrate when our wiki cross a major milestones, Let us<br>
> celebrate when one our community member does some marvellous things for<br>
> wiki. Let us celebrate when community able to engage in a relationship with<br>
> state government... There are many reasons to celebrate. Let us celebrate<br>
> all those and build the sense of pride about their projects among our<br>
> community members. The most powerful fuel in our engines is passion - and<br>
> we need to get more of it in our veins.<br>
><br>
</div></div>> ProjectsThere is a constant debate of what should come first - article<br>
<div><div class="h5">> count or article quality? I don't think there is an answer to this that is<br>
> equally applicable across all projects and communities. I had strong<br>
> convictions on this based on my past experience with Malayalam wiki<br>
> projects - which have been reinforced after my initial discussions with<br>
> Indic Wikimedians from across the country. In this regard, I wish to share<br>
> a provocative statement about bots. Bots can and should be used to do<br>
> repetitive tasks (like adding categories) because that reduces wasting<br>
> volunteer time - which is limited and precious. However, the use of bots<br>
> for article creation is something that I would strongly discourage. The<br>
> current state of Newari wikipedia (which has nearly 70,000 articles but<br>
> zero active editors) reinforces my argument.<br>
><br>
> The argument for using bots for article creation is that it provides<br>
> placeholders for editors to start working on these articles. While there<br>
> is some merit in this argument, the problem is that this kind of artificial<br>
> intervention means that the volume of work required to improve quality far<br>
> outpaces the community strength. It is like a sportsman using steroids.<br>
> It is not natural or healthy. It results in large numbers of very poor<br>
> quality articles - which are of such a basic nature that it might be better<br>
> not to have them in the project. (For example, if the only information<br>
> about a town is that "Abc town is in Abc district which is in Abc state and<br>
> the population is 12345 according to the 2001 census", this article is so<br>
> weak that it cannot honestly be said to exist.) If a project has thousands<br>
> of these kind of articles, the whole project will be regarded as being of<br>
> poor quality and will put off readers.) More fatally, if a project has<br>
> thousands of such bot entries, it doesn't inspire editors to contribute -<br>
> but instead makes them disillusioned because they feel that so many<br>
> articles of such bad quality that they just give up on where to start!<br>
> There<br>
> are many who feel that, for example, Hindi wikipedia has been adversely<br>
> impacted by the overusage of bots.<br>
><br>
> Another very important aspect I want to address is the kind of policies we<br>
> adopt for Indic projects. Too often, tiny projects and communities are<br>
> adopting too many of the policies of English Wikipedia. The policies of<br>
> English wikipedia have evolved over years as English Wikipedia grew in<br>
> community and article size. These policies are suitable for English<br>
> Wikipedia given the size and breadth of its community. My view is that<br>
> many of these are not appropriate for the current state of most Indic<br>
> projects and communities given that the community sizes are 60,000 for<br>
> English and ~25 for the average Indic community. If English Wikipedia<br>
> policies are indiscriminately adopted, results in the feedback that I am<br>
> seeing from many Indic editors that they are spending too much time doing<br>
> "administrative" tasks like categorisation and not getting enough time for<br>
> basic core editing. Let me elaborate. Something like NPOV is central to<br>
> our overall philosophy. This cannot and must not be diluted. However, even<br>
> if I take the larger Indic Wikipedias, it really is not such a major issue<br>
> if the categorisation is currently weak. The focus has to be to build<br>
> articles quality and content, and not necessarily having all the content<br>
> neatly slotted into categories. Of course, something like categorisation<br>
> is good, but not at the cost of article quality. I want to make an even<br>
> more provocative suggestion. Verifiability is really really really<br>
> important to all our projects. However, if one looks at how English<br>
> Wikipedia evolved in the early days, it started with editors just adding<br>
> content. Over a period of time, other editors came in and added and<br>
> improved citations. Even today, as a recent Signpost article mentioned,<br>
> there are 2.5 lakh articles in English<br>
</div></div>> Wikipedia<<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2011-10-31/Opinion_essay" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2011-10-31/Opinion_essay</a>>that<br>
<div class="im">> don't have references. We should encourage editors to write, write<br>
> and write! References will follow. Let us not chase away editors because<br>
> we want every article to be perfect in a 20,000 article project. Of course<br>
> we want quality but let us take it in stages - and let us prioritise what<br>
> is most important to begin with. I think many editors would find it<br>
> incredibly satisfying and inspiring and motivating to start and edit new<br>
> articles, and they might get it 80% right. This will attract a much bigger<br>
> community within which there will emerge a new generation of editors who<br>
> love to add detail and citations.<br>
><br>
</div>> ReadershipOne of my big discoveries I had was to see the total size of<br>
<div class="im">> readership. I have often contemplated the Catch 22 situation of Indic<br>
> language Wikimedians - where there is no awareness of the projects so there<br>
> is no readership and even where there is readership, readers are not<br>
> satisfied because of a low number articles or poor quality of articles.<br>
> Conversely, editors don't find adequate motivation and satisfaction because<br>
> they believe there are too few readers for their contributions. I often<br>
> wondered how we would approach this problem - and which we should address<br>
> first. I used to think that we should first focus on community building<br>
> and article quality - and that readers will automatically follow. To that<br>
> extent, I used to think that we shouldn't worry about readers because they<br>
> will inevitably follow content. The fact that last month, we had more than<br>
> 4 crore readers for our Indic language<br>
</div>> wikipedias<<a href="https://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/12/12/indian-language-wikipedia-statistics-october-2011/" target="_blank">https://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/12/12/indian-language-wikipedia-statistics-october-2011/</a>>means<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">> that the dilemma of what we need to do is no longer valid. We have<br>
> readers. Lakhs and lakhs and lakhs of them for each Indic language wiki!<br>
> We now need to focus singlemindedly on community building and project<br>
> quality. As internet penetration and mobile data access increase, we will<br>
> get even more Indic readers. We don't need to do anything to attract<br>
> readers. However, we need to do *everything* to keep them coming back by<br>
> increasing article count while religiously maintaining and increasing<br>
> article quality and size of community.<br>
><br>
> I would love to hear your thoughts and views on these suggestions.<br>
><br>
> The next stage of my work is going to be to speak directly with various<br>
> communities in village pumps itself. I will try and make these as relevant<br>
> and specific to individual communities - and also to share some ideas which<br>
> have relevance across similar communities. For instance, some ideas will<br>
> be similar to all communities with less than 25 active editors. I also<br>
> want to try and identify potential areas of support that India Programs<br>
> could work closely with communities on. The idea is to support community<br>
> across languages. We would like to identify a very limited (1 or 2) pilots<br>
> of a very controlled nature (in terms of scale) that we would like to<br>
> collaboratively design with respective communities. Given the efforts that<br>
> will be required in any pilot (even if it is of a relatively small scale),<br>
> we believe that there needs to be a certain basic level of community size<br>
> and collaboration to be able handle such pilots.<br>
><br>
> I will be sharing this mail on the various local language / local town<br>
> mailing lists as well as the respective language village pumps. I look<br>
> forward to hearing your views.<br>
><br>
> I placed the content of this mail in metawiki also. It is here:<br>
> <a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Summary_of_initial_discussions_-_2011" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Indic_Languages/Summary_of_initial_discussions_-_2011</a><br>
><br>
> Regards<br>
><br>
> Shiju Alex<br>
> India Programs Team<br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">--<br>
Regards,<br>
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.<br>
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on December 10th.<br>
<a href="http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore" target="_blank">http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org">Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org</a><br>
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit <a href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l" target="_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l</a><br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Rajesh Pandey<br>
</div></div></div>