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I dont understand where PD is concerned why proof is asked for, have we forgotten "Assuming good faith"?<br><br>> From: wikimediaindia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org<br>> Subject: Wikimediaindia-l Digest, Vol 35, Issue 16<br>> To: wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org<br>> Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 11:07:14 +0000<br>> <br>> Send Wikimediaindia-l mailing list submissions to<br>> wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org<br>> <br>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l<br>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>> wikimediaindia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org<br>> <br>> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>> wikimediaindia-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org<br>> <br>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>> than "Re: Contents of Wikimediaindia-l digest..."<br>> <br>> <br>> Today's Topics:<br>> <br>> 1. 13th Meetup of Wikipedians in [[Pune]], [[Maharashtra]] -<br>> please note details and register (Ashwin Baindur)<br>> 2. Fwd: Copyright problems of images from India (Shiju Alex)<br>> 3. Re: Fwd: Copyright problems of images from India (Bala Jeyaraman)<br>> <br>> <br>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 1<br>> Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 11:15:53 +0530<br>> From: Ashwin Baindur <ashwin.baindur@gmail.com><br>> Subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] 13th Meetup of Wikipedians in [[Pune]],<br>> [[Maharashtra]] - please note details and register<br>> To: "Mailing list for Wikimedians in Pune, India"<br>> <wikimedia-in-pun@lists.wikimedia.org>, mr-wiki@yahoogroups.com,<br>> wikimediaindia-l <wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, Wikipedians<br>> for Indian Nature <Wiki_India_Nature@googlegroups.com>,<br>> wikimedia-in-mum <wikimedia-in-mum@lists.wikimedia.org>, "Agarwal,<br>> Shirish" <shirishag75@gmail.com>, "Bagade, Ashok "<br>> <ashok.bagade@gmail.com>, Col Ashwin Baindur<br>> <ashwin.baindur@gmail.com>, "Jogalekar, Sudhanwa "<br>> <sudhanwa.com@gmail.com>, "Patankar, Anand"<br>> <anandpatankar@gmail.com>, "Rasal, Prasad" <studioblossoms@gmail.com>,<br>> "Sharma, Chandan" <chandan7882@yahoo.com>, "Vaidya, Prasad"<br>> <prasad.vaidya@gmail.com><br>> Message-ID: <BANLkTimrnYci=Pg=V-X7AS+XztUUFLqDkA@mail.gmail.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>> <br>> A reminder for the 13th Meetup of Wikipedians in [[Pune]], [[Maharashtra]].<br>> Please see the[[Wikipedia:Meetup/Pune/Pune13|meetup page]] for details and<br>> indicate your attendance.<br>> The intended purpose of the meetup is:<br>> <blockquote> '''to discuss the Campus Ambassador Program and forthcoming<br>> WikiConference 2011'''.</blockquote><br>> ''Highlights - '''Hisham Mundol''', National Director, India Program &<br>> '''Bishakha<br>> Datta''', Global Trustee, Wikimedia Foundation will be present for the<br>> meetup.''<br>> <br>> <br>> [[User:AshLin|AshLin]] ([[User talk:AshLin|talk]]) 04:13, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br>> <br>> Warm regards,<br>> <br>> Ashwin Baindur<br>> ------------------------------------------------------<br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/attachments/20110509/2b4437ac/attachment-0001.htm <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 2<br>> Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 12:37:25 +0200<br>> From: Shiju Alex <shijualexonline@gmail.com><br>> Subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Copyright problems of images from<br>> India<br>> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List<br>> <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, "Discussion list on Indian<br>> language projects of Wikimedia."<br>> <wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org><br>> Message-ID: <BANLkTin0sOEbFnw9YROCdrMyM463UdDynw@mail.gmail.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>> <br>> Dear All,<br>> <br>> I am forwarding the below mail on behalf of a Malayalam wikipedian who is<br>> very active in Wikimedia Commons.<br>> <br>> Of late it is becoming very difficult for many Wikimedians from India to<br>> contribute to Wikimedia Commons especially if they are uploading historical<br>> images which are in PD. We are facing lot of issues (and many a times<br>> unnecessary controversies also) with the historic images in PD, images of<br>> wall paintings and statues, and so on. Please see the below mail in which<br>> Sreejith citing various examples.<br>> <br>> It is almost impossible for the uploaders from India to show proof of the<br>> century old images of Hindu Gods and Goddesses. The current policies of<br>> Commons are not permitting many of the PD images from India citing all sorts<br>> of policies which might be relevant only in the western world. With these<br>> type of policies we are going to have serious issues when we try to go for<br>> GLAM type events.<br>> <br>> But I also do not know the solution for this issue. Requesting constructive<br>> discussion.<br>> <br>> <br>> Shiju Alex<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>> From: Sreejith K. <sreejithk2000@gmail.com><br>> Date: Thu, May 5, 2011 at 12:03 PM<br>> Subject: Copyright problems of images from India<br>> To: Shiju Alex <shijualexonline@gmail.com><br>> <br>> <br>> Shiju,<br>> <br>> As you might be aware already, we are having trouble keeping historical<br>> images about India in Wikimedia commons. This pertains mostly to images<br>> about Hindu gods and people who died before 1947.<br>> <br>> Please see the below examples:<br>> <br>> - File:Narayana<br>> Guru.jpg<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Narayana_Guru.jpg> -<br>> This is the image of Sree Narayana<br>> Guru<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narayana_Guru>,<br>> a Hindu saint, social reformer and is even considered a god by certain<br>> castes in Kerala. This image has been tagged as an image with No source.<br>> Narayana Guru expired in 1928 and considering the conditions in which India<br>> was in during that period and before, it is very difficult to get an image<br>> source online. Most active Wikipedians does not have access or information<br>> on how old the image is or where a source of it can be found. Any photograph<br>> published before 1941 in India is in public domain as per Indian copyright<br>> act. Common sense says that this image meets this criteria because the<br>> person was long lead before 1941, but we still need proof of the first<br>> publishing date. Deleting this image on grounds that no source could be<br>> found will only reduce the informative values of all the articles which this<br>> image is included in.<br>> - File:Aravana.JPG: This image has already been deleted, but you can see<br>> the amount of discussion that went in before deleting it. See<br>> Commons:Deletion<br>> requests/File:Aravana.JPG<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Aravana.JPG>.<br>> (An almost similar image can be found<br>> here<http://www.flickr.com/photos/anoopp/5706721852/in/photostream/>.)This<br>> image as put for deletion because it had the image of Swami<br>> Ayyappan<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Ayyappan>in it. Ayyappan,<br>> a popular god of Kerala, has his image circulated<br>> everywhere on the plant with no proof of copyrights. It makes sense to<br>> believe that this image is not eligible for copyright because<br>> Hindu deities are all common property, but again, Commons need proof that<br>> the image is in public domain. This is the same case with all Hindu<br>> gods/goddesses. The images can only be kept in Commons if the uploader can<br>> provide proof that the images are in public domain.<br>> - File:Kottarathil<br>> sankunni.jpg<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kottarathil_sankunni.jpg>:<br>> This is a picture of Kottarathil<br>> Sankunni<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kottarathil_Sankunni>,<br>> the author of the famous book<br>> Aithiyamaala<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aithihyamala>.<br>> Kottarathil Sankunni died in 1937 and so it makes sense to believe that this<br>> image was created on or before 1937 and thus falls in Public Domain. But<br>> some people in Commons is refusing to believe that and is asking for proof.<br>> Now it becomes the responsibility of the uploader to show proof that this<br>> image was published 60 years before today. The editor who nominated the<br>> image for deletion is on the safer side because it is not his responsibility<br>> to prove that the image is a copyright violation. So long story short,<br>> anyone can nominate any image for copyright violation and it becomes the<br>> uploaders responsibility to prove that its not. The deletion nomination need<br>> not be accompanied with a reason for disbelief.<br>> - File:Anoop<br>> Menon.jpg<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anoop_Menon.jpg>:<br>> This is the picture of Anoop<br>> Menon<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoop_Menon>,<br>> a popular actor from Kerala. A discussion is going on about the uploaders<br>> credibility whether he is the original photographer of this image. Please<br>> see File talk:Anoop<br>> Menon.jpg<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Anoop_Menon.jpg>.<br>> The reason for doubting the uploader is simple. This image has professional<br>> quality and so the uploader cannot be the copyright owner because this is<br>> his first upload. Strange? Now, it becomes the responsibility of the<br>> uploader to prove that he took this image and I do not know how and nor does<br>> the person who is arguing for it. He claims that the uploader can upload the<br>> full resolution image with EXIF but whats even funny is that most of images<br>> from the person who is saying this does not meet this criteria. Again, back<br>> to round 1 in my first example. Its the responsibility of the uploader to<br>> prove his image and anyone can doubt him for any stupid reason and commons<br>> hardly cares.<br>> <br>> As you can see, it is getting quite difficult to maintain images from India<br>> in commons. India is a country which has only started to use Internet less<br>> than a decade ago and we still do not have many of our countries' books or<br>> sources of information online. So any image from India which gets nominated<br>> for deletion in Wikimedia Commons get deleted for absence of proof. Commons<br>> is ruled by *precautionary principle*, where in they are not willing to take<br>> any risks on copyright and will delete any image for which anyone has<br>> doubts. This is in contrary to local wikipedia projects in India where it is<br>> rules by the *good faith principle* where we will trust the uploader and it<br>> becomes the responsibility of the nominator to prove that the image has<br>> false copyright claim.<br>> <br>> This issue is beginning to hurt the contents from India. If we can do<br>> something, its time we act immediately. If we are just going to just spent<br>> out time discussing about it, the pictures of all Hindu gods and people who<br>> died before independence might get deleted by that time.<br>> <br>> Regards,<br>> Sreejith K.<br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/attachments/20110510/c986b84c/attachment-0001.htm <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 3<br>> Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 16:37:12 +0530<br>> From: Bala Jeyaraman <sodabottle@gmail.com><br>> Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Copyright problems of images from<br>> India<br>> To: Wikimedia India Community list<br>> <wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org><br>> Message-ID: <BANLkTi=S8U-55_EmShLVOgWbNJbnT=TeJA@mail.gmail.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>> <br>> 1) >>Ayyappan, a popular god of Kerala, has his image circulated everywhere<br>> on the plant with no proof of copyrights. It makes sense to believe that<br>> this image is not eligible for copyright because Hindu deities are all<br>> common property,<br>> <br>> i have to disagree with this. All images of Hindu deities are not public<br>> property. Most of the popular images were done by painters some time in the<br>> immediate past - Ravi varma's paintings form the base for many deity images.<br>> Similarly there are many unknown temple artists, who have gone uncredite<br>> because of our practice of gross insensitivity to others' copyright.<br>> Claiming that deity images are not eligible for copyright is wrong. They do<br>> have copyright and unless there is iron clad proof of publication, dont<br>> decalre them to be in public domain. The fairuse clause is there for cases<br>> like this.<br>> <br>> <br>> 2) While i understand what sreejith is saying, repeated copyright violations<br>> in commons by Indian uploaders is mainly to blame for this backlash. In Ta<br>> wiki and in commons, i have to repeat many times to people that "everything<br>> that comes out of google image search is not free". In my experience, about<br>> half the people react defensively to such advice and reflexively claim the<br>> image is "own work" and they "took it". They do not like being pointed out<br>> they are wrong and thus damage the reputation of Indian uploaders further.<br>> Many of the regular commons users thus become immediately suspicious when a<br>> new indian user claims that an image is "own work". Even in the outreach<br>> programs i participated, people listen to me drone about how taking images<br>> of google image search is not ok and do the same the immediately after. This<br>> issue is not restricted to Indian users, but is a major problem for us. The<br>> only way to deal with this is a relentless copyright awareness campaign for<br>> Indian users.<br>> <br>> 3) Images of people who died prior to 1951. Here too the case is not clear.<br>> Many photos of such people are reconstructive work done post-1951.<br>> Colourisation of black and white pictures is a major concern. I am still not<br>> clear, if colourisation passes the originality threshold and becomes a<br>> original work on its own. If so, then such a work cannot be claimed as PD.<br>> <br>> Personally i add a ton of descriptive information and long arguments to<br>> prove PD in india and in case of my own images, i always upload with full<br>> resolution and metadata. It is a sad bad situation, but the root cause is<br>> relative ignorance of Indians (including me) about copyright.<br>> <br>> regards<br>> Bala<br>> <br>> On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Shiju Alex <shijualexonline@gmail.com>wrote:<br>> <br>> > Dear All,<br>> ><br>> > I am forwarding the below mail on behalf of a Malayalam wikipedian who is<br>> > very active in Wikimedia Commons.<br>> ><br>> > Of late it is becoming very difficult for many Wikimedians from India to<br>> > contribute to Wikimedia Commons especially if they are uploading historical<br>> > images which are in PD. We are facing lot of issues (and many a times<br>> > unnecessary controversies also) with the historic images in PD, images of<br>> > wall paintings and statues, and so on. Please see the below mail in which<br>> > Sreejith citing various examples.<br>> ><br>> > It is almost impossible for the uploaders from India to show proof of the<br>> > century old images of Hindu Gods and Goddesses. The current policies of<br>> > Commons are not permitting many of the PD images from India citing all sorts<br>> > of policies which might be relevant only in the western world. With these<br>> > type of policies we are going to have serious issues when we try to go for<br>> > GLAM type events.<br>> ><br>> > But I also do not know the solution for this issue. Requesting constructive<br>> > discussion.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Shiju Alex<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>> > From: Sreejith K. <sreejithk2000@gmail.com><br>> > Date: Thu, May 5, 2011 at 12:03 PM<br>> > Subject: Copyright problems of images from India<br>> > To: Shiju Alex <shijualexonline@gmail.com><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Shiju,<br>> ><br>> > As you might be aware already, we are having trouble keeping historical<br>> > images about India in Wikimedia commons. This pertains mostly to images<br>> > about Hindu gods and people who died before 1947.<br>> ><br>> > Please see the below examples:<br>> ><br>> > - File:Narayana Guru.jpg<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Narayana_Guru.jpg> -<br>> > This is the image of Sree Narayana Guru<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narayana_Guru>,<br>> > a Hindu saint, social reformer and is even considered a god by certain<br>> > castes in Kerala. This image has been tagged as an image with No source.<br>> > Narayana Guru expired in 1928 and considering the conditions in which India<br>> > was in during that period and before, it is very difficult to get an image<br>> > source online. Most active Wikipedians does not have access or information<br>> > on how old the image is or where a source of it can be found. Any photograph<br>> > published before 1941 in India is in public domain as per Indian copyright<br>> > act. Common sense says that this image meets this criteria because the<br>> > person was long lead before 1941, but we still need proof of the first<br>> > publishing date. Deleting this image on grounds that no source could be<br>> > found will only reduce the informative values of all the articles which this<br>> > image is included in.<br>> > - File:Aravana.JPG: This image has already been deleted, but you can<br>> > see the amount of discussion that went in before deleting it. See Commons:Deletion<br>> > requests/File:Aravana.JPG<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Aravana.JPG>.<br>> > (An almost similar image can be found here<http://www.flickr.com/photos/anoopp/5706721852/in/photostream/>.)This<br>> > image as put for deletion because it had the image of Swami Ayyappan<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Ayyappan>in it. Ayyappan, a popular god of Kerala, has his image circulated<br>> > everywhere on the plant with no proof of copyrights. It makes sense to<br>> > believe that this image is not eligible for copyright because<br>> > Hindu deities are all common property, but again, Commons need proof that<br>> > the image is in public domain. This is the same case with all Hindu<br>> > gods/goddesses. The images can only be kept in Commons if the uploader can<br>> > provide proof that the images are in public domain.<br>> > - File:Kottarathil sankunni.jpg<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kottarathil_sankunni.jpg>:<br>> > This is a picture of Kottarathil Sankunni<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kottarathil_Sankunni>,<br>> > the author of the famous book Aithiyamaala<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aithihyamala>.<br>> > Kottarathil Sankunni died in 1937 and so it makes sense to believe that this<br>> > image was created on or before 1937 and thus falls in Public Domain. But<br>> > some people in Commons is refusing to believe that and is asking for proof.<br>> > Now it becomes the responsibility of the uploader to show proof that this<br>> > image was published 60 years before today. The editor who nominated the<br>> > image for deletion is on the safer side because it is not his responsibility<br>> > to prove that the image is a copyright violation. So long story short,<br>> > anyone can nominate any image for copyright violation and it becomes the<br>> > uploaders responsibility to prove that its not. The deletion nomination need<br>> > not be accompanied with a reason for disbelief.<br>> > - File:Anoop Menon.jpg<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anoop_Menon.jpg>:<br>> > This is the picture of Anoop Menon<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoop_Menon>,<br>> > a popular actor from Kerala. A discussion is going on about the uploaders<br>> > credibility whether he is the original photographer of this image. Please<br>> > see File talk:Anoop Menon.jpg<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Anoop_Menon.jpg>.<br>> > The reason for doubting the uploader is simple. This image has professional<br>> > quality and so the uploader cannot be the copyright owner because this is<br>> > his first upload. Strange? Now, it becomes the responsibility of the<br>> > uploader to prove that he took this image and I do not know how and nor does<br>> > the person who is arguing for it. He claims that the uploader can upload the<br>> > full resolution image with EXIF but whats even funny is that most of images<br>> > from the person who is saying this does not meet this criteria. Again, back<br>> > to round 1 in my first example. Its the responsibility of the uploader to<br>> > prove his image and anyone can doubt him for any stupid reason and commons<br>> > hardly cares.<br>> ><br>> > As you can see, it is getting quite difficult to maintain images from India<br>> > in commons. India is a country which has only started to use Internet less<br>> > than a decade ago and we still do not have many of our countries' books or<br>> > sources of information online. So any image from India which gets nominated<br>> > for deletion in Wikimedia Commons get deleted for absence of proof. Commons<br>> > is ruled by *precautionary principle*, where in they are not willing to<br>> > take any risks on copyright and will delete any image for which anyone has<br>> > doubts. This is in contrary to local wikipedia projects in India where it is<br>> > rules by the *good faith principle* where we will trust the uploader and<br>> > it becomes the responsibility of the nominator to prove that the image has<br>> > false copyright claim.<br>> ><br>> > This issue is beginning to hurt the contents from India. If we can do<br>> > something, its time we act immediately. If we are just going to just spent<br>> > out time discussing about it, the pictures of all Hindu gods and people who<br>> > died before independence might get deleted by that time.<br>> ><br>> > Regards,<br>> > Sreejith K.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list<br>> > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org<br>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l<br>> ><br>> ><br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/attachments/20110510/06d99b92/attachment.htm <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list<br>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org<br>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l<br>> <br>> <br>> End of Wikimediaindia-l Digest, Vol 35, Issue 16<br>> ************************************************<br> </body>
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