[Wikimediaindia-l] Death and Post-mortem of Indian Education Program pilot
Béria Lima
berialima at gmail.com
Tue Nov 15 13:03:15 UTC 2011
Since you people are playing with numbers:
In Brazil program - page:
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Wikimedia_Brasil_Educa%C3%A7%C3%A3o-
the CA is
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usu%C3%A1rio:OTAVIO1981 and his edits are:
Total editcount: 14346
Main 5455 38.02% Talk 1544 10.76% User 299 2.08% User talk 1004 7%
Project 2305 16.07% Project talk 586 4.08% Image 20 0.14% Template 655
4.57% Template talk 24 0.17% Help 8 0.06% Category 711 4.96% Category
talk 1 0.01%Source:
http://toolserver.org/~vvv/yaec.php?user=OTAVIO1981&wiki=ptwiki_p
The OA - yours truly - have this edit count:
Total editcount: 44979
Main 18984 42.21% Talk 1605 3.57% User 1557 3.46% User talk 7365 16.37%
Project 7440 16.54% Project talk 706 1.57% Image 43 0.1% MediaWiki 122
0.27% MediaWiki talk 11 0.02% Template 1243 2.76% Template talk 30 0.07%
Help 21 0.05% Help talk 3 0.01% Category 597 1.33% Category talk 1 0%source:
http://toolserver.org/~vvv/yaec.php?user=Beria&wiki=ptwiki_p
We have more 2 OA, and both have similar numbers of edits. So I can
understand what Bala says when he complain the program is being conduct by
people who doesn't edit WP (In pt,wiki, Ran, you wouldn't even have right
to vote)
_____
*Béria Lima*
<http://wikimedia.pt/>(351) 925 171 484
*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. <http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos>*
On 15 November 2011 07:38, Ram Shankar Yadav <ramshankaryadav at gmail.com>wrote:
> *This is exactly the kind of cluelessness i am referring to. The
> [[WP:COMPETENCE]] exists exactly for this purpose - we dont want "kids",
> who will "mess up" by "drawing mangoes and bananas" here. We want atleast
> semi competent, interested people who can act responsibly.*
> *
> *
> *- *First of all stop playing those policy games, before looking at
> [[WP:COMPETENCE]] I would rather say to have a look at [[WP:DONTBITE]].
>
> *But then, i should expect this general cluelessness and ignorance from
> a "campus ambassador" with a grand total of 41 mainspace edits?. *
> *
> *
> - Dude you are getting personal here, I respect you obsession with numbers
> but the whole idea of a "campus ambassador" is to help others to edit,
> instead of writing articles for edit count. You just took one number and
> creating all the fuss but you ignored others like ...
>
> Total Edits :705 (in last 5 months)
> Article 49 7.09%
> Talk 6 0.87%
> *User 185 26.77%*
> *User talk 238 34.44%*
> *Wikipedia 144 20.84%*
> Wikipedia talk 26 3.76%
> Template 37 5.35%
> Help 6 0.87%
>
> For more stats :
> http://toolserver.org/~soxred93/pcount/index.php?name=Ramshankaryadav&lang=en&wiki=wikipedia
>
> Apart from the numbers we got the experience of personally touching 1000+
> students and interacting with Faculty and Directors, which you can not do
> by siting and editing Wikipedia in your living room. I'm not a 14000+
> editor like you but I share the same philosophy of free knowledge, but
> instead of respecting us you are doing all the mud throwing, it's not
> acceptable at all!!
>
> *This sums up the problem of the IEP - designed by people clueless about
> how en wiki works and run by "campus ambassadors" who view wikipedia as a
> giant sandbox to play with students.*
> - You are crossing your limits here, we have repeatedly accepted our
> faults but this is too much, we tried something new things, and few worked
> few didn't by it doesn't gives you the authority to say whatever you like
> to!
> Instead of coming up with "How we can make it better" you are more into
> the mode of "You did it wrong"!.
>
> ~Ram
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Bala Jeyaraman <sodabottle at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> -* If Hisham and Nitika were clueless why didn't to step-up and asked
>> them about the expectations. One more thing when you are starting something
>> new don't expect people will start reaching you from the Day1, we need to
>> build a relationship and get their faith that "we are here to help you, and
>> it's going to be great learning experience". Tell me how many times did you
>> reached out to students, even if you did and they didn't responded don't
>> loose the faith, they are new to this environment just help them to take
>> baby steps.
>>
>> *I remember doing this exactly on Oct 12 office hours. Here is the
>> transcript snippet which srikanth has provided in the earlier mail. Again
>> you are demonstrating your ignorance about what an OA role is.
>>
>>
>> Oct 12 15:34:32 <srikanthlogic> but i was on IRC, got only one help req
>>> in a whole week, my talk page was untouched. I am ready to help if
>>> people reach out :)
>>> Oct 12 15:35:33 <Hmundol> srikanthlogic & soda bottle : yes, i know that
>>> more students ought to be reaching out but sometimes they don't even know
>>> the mistake they are committing so don't reach out. …what the Campus
>>> Ambassadors have been doing i s proactively going to contrib histories and
>>> checking in. …unfortunately, that seems to the only way that it's worked.
>>
>>
>> *.*
>> - *First of all I didn't like the way you put this statement, if helping
>> someone by teaching them the right way is some kind of low grade job for
>> you, then I can surely say you are a misfit here! Just imagine you are
>> trying teach a kid to write, they will definitely mess it up by drawing
>> mangoes and bananas, and when you clear the slate you don't call it
>> janatorship, coz you know what you are doing, and having faith that the kid
>> will learn by doing mistakes eventually.
>>
>> *
>> This is exactly the kind of cluelessness i am referring to. The
>> [[WP:COMPETENCE]] exists exactly for this purpose - we dont want "kids",
>> who will "mess up" by "drawing mangoes and bananas" here. We want atleast
>> semi competent, interested people who can act responsibly.
>>
>> But then, i should expect this general cluelessness and ignorance from a
>> "campus ambassador" with a grand total of 41 mainspace edits?.
>>
>> This sums up the problem of the IEP - designed by people clueless about
>> how en wiki works and run by "campus ambassadors" who view wikipedia as a
>> giant sandbox to play with students.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Ashwin Baindur <
>> ashwin.baindur at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> We have had a lot of responses and recriminations on this issue. In the
>>> light of all that has happened, please let us stop our grousing. Hisham has
>>> opened a new thread, and accepted full responsibility. That is the end of
>>> the blame-game as far as anybody is concerned. All of us are inviolved and
>>> all of us are both innocent and blameworthy, including and especially me. I
>>> know I should have done more.
>>>
>>> Let us bring this thread to a close. Let all posts now be in response to
>>> his new thread only and couched in positive terms and offering useful
>>> suggestions or fresh input.
>>>
>>>
>>> Warm regards,
>>>
>>> Ashwin Baindur
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Ram Shankar Yadav <
>>> ramshankaryadav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Bala,
>>>>
>>>> *"Oh yeah. Do everything wrong and then blame the OA. Hisham, Nitika
>>>> and apparently you are clueless what an OAs role is. I had no clue the OA
>>>> role involved going through every edit and do the student's work. IEPs
>>>> mails did not specify that the expectation about OA role was doing the
>>>> student's homework. If you had made this clear, i would have never signed
>>>> up."*
>>>>
>>>> - We are not putting blame on anyone. If Hisham and Nitika were
>>>> clueless why didn't to step-up and asked them about the expectations. One
>>>> more thing when you are starting something new don't expect people will
>>>> start reaching you from the Day1, we need to build a relationship and get
>>>> their faith that "we are here to help you, and it's going to be great
>>>> learning experience". Tell me how many times did you reached out to
>>>> students, even if you did and they didn't responded don't loose the faith,
>>>> they are new to this environment just help them to take baby steps.
>>>>
>>>> *It imagined them to be janitors who would cleanup after the
>>>> students. (Dont believe me?, ask the other Indian guy who was an OA in
>>>> both programs - MikeLynch).*
>>>> - First of all I didn't like the way you put this statement, if helping
>>>> someone by teaching them the right way is some kind of low grade job for
>>>> you, then I can surely say you are a misfit here! Just imagine you are
>>>> trying teach a kid to write, they will definitely mess it up by drawing
>>>> mangoes and bananas, and when you clear the slate you don't call it
>>>> janatorship, coz you know what you are doing, and having faith that the kid
>>>> will learn by doing mistakes eventually.
>>>>
>>>> *Another wrong fact. An Indian admin called spacemanspiff who tried
>>>> to point Hisham and group in the right direction in early september when
>>>> things started to go wrong (it was in the talk page of Moonriddengirl,
>>>> where fluffernutter went to help with copyvios). He even designed a helpful
>>>> Q&A page which Hisham did not use. Disgusted with the IEP attitude, Spiff
>>>> quit trying to help. The whole issue could have been stopped right then and
>>>> there if the warnings of multiple editors and admins had been heeded.*
>>>>
>>>> - Accept my apologies for not able to recall few Indian Admins who
>>>> tired to help us, but if you see the big picture, the whole scene was
>>>> dominated by editors from abroad. We needed your help and support when
>>>> these folks were pointing fingers on Indian Education System. One more
>>>> thing, after the first few instances of copyvios we reached out in person
>>>> and took 35+ sessions in various classes but even after putting that effort
>>>> few of them kept doing the copy-paste for last minute submissions.
>>>>
>>>> *And why exactly do you need "Indian" community to help?. The newbie
>>>> editors were getting plenty of help from the global community.*
>>>> *- *By "Indian" community I mean people like you and me and others you
>>>> are either reading or replying this thread, guys we surely needed your
>>>> support at the forefront.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We never denied the fact that we have failed in certain areas but that
>>>> doesn't mean that overall program is a failure or dead.
>>>>
>>>> We believe in learning from our mistakes and happy to do new ones to
>>>> learn better.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ram
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 11:27 PM, Bala Jeyaraman <sodabottle at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> >>*we never got the support which was required from an OA. Honestly
>>>>> speaking there was no interaction between OAs and CAs and without
>>>>> that coordination chances of success are quite low. *
>>>>> *My only point here is to all the OAs in this discussion is that if
>>>>> Hisham/Nitika has not set the expectations right, why didn't you approached
>>>>> them, then and there! Anybody can come and comment on this failure story
>>>>> but even you were a part of this sinking ship.*
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh yeah. Do everything wrong and then blame the OA. Hisham, Nitika and
>>>>> apparently you are clueless what an OAs role is. I had no clue the OA role
>>>>> involved going through every edit and do the student's work. IEPs mails
>>>>> did not specify that the expectation about OA role was doing the student's
>>>>> homework. If you had made this clear, i would have never signed up.
>>>>>
>>>>> So get this straight - IEP had no clue what Online Ambassador's did in
>>>>> the PPP. They just used the term in IEP and recruited a bunch of volunteer
>>>>> editors expecting them to cleanup after the students. This is not an issue
>>>>> of miscommunication, this is an issue of ignorance. The IEP didnt know what
>>>>> OAs do. It imagined them to be janitors who would cleanup after the
>>>>> students. (Dont believe me?, ask the other Indian guy who was an OA in
>>>>> both programs - MikeLynch).
>>>>>
>>>>> >>,* I can't recall a single instance when an Indian Administrator
>>>>> came forward and found a copyvio/poor editing, etc
>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>> Another wrong fact. An Indian admin called spacemanspiff who tried to
>>>>> point Hisham and group in the right direction in early september when
>>>>> things started to go wrong (it was in the talk page of Moonriddengirl,
>>>>> where fluffernutter went to help with copyvios). He even designed a helpful
>>>>> Q&A page which Hisham did not use. Disgusted with the IEP attitude, Spiff
>>>>> quit trying to help. The whole issue could have been stopped right then and
>>>>> there if the warnings of multiple editors and admins had been heeded.
>>>>>
>>>>> And why exactly do you need "Indian" community to help?. The newbie
>>>>> editors were getting plenty of help from the global community. You dont
>>>>> need a specific nationality editor to come and tell the students what to do
>>>>> and what not to do. A student who doesnt listen to "Do not copy paste"
>>>>> instruction coming from a American editor is not going to care if the
>>>>> instruction came from an Indian editor.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Ram Shankar Yadav <
>>>>> ramshankaryadav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> +1 Srikanth!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey Folks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm Ram and I'm one of the CA's worked closely with CoEP and SSE. I
>>>>>> would like to share my views on this most discussed topic, coz the term
>>>>>> "FAIL" is quite thought provoking, and now everyone has an opinion and I
>>>>>> respect that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a Campus Ambassador(CA) we faced the heat on ground and nobody can
>>>>>> feel the pain like us when we heard the discontinuation of IEP in CoEP coz
>>>>>> we gave our personal time physically and virtually in every possible way to
>>>>>> make this program a success, and I promise we'll keep doing that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My views on IEP:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. *Wikipedia India Education Program(IEP) for a CA* : The whole
>>>>>> idea of this program like everyone knows is to get more editors, but we
>>>>>> have our own set of challenges in the age of Facebook. What a bunch of CAs
>>>>>> have done in as short span of 5 months can't be done in a couple of months
>>>>>> by existing Community(local or global), coz we touched the students(1000+)
>>>>>> personally, we had the experience of interactions with Faculty and
>>>>>> Directors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our only aim was to tell them(students) that Wikipedia is "cool", and
>>>>>> indeed we did that! in the way we taught wikipedia to them. Few things
>>>>>> which we tell our students in our Wiki Sessions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Writing on Wikipedia will give you global audience, 400 million
>>>>>> unique visitors
>>>>>> - It will improve your Writing, Critical Thinking
>>>>>> and Collaborative skills
>>>>>> - It will add a bullet point to your resume and hence better
>>>>>> placements
>>>>>> - Lastly it will also give you marks if you follow the given
>>>>>> deadlines
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I agree that we have seen setback coz of the copyvios, but I
>>>>>> totally agree with Srikanth coz this was due to the scale and numbers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. *Faculty Involvement* : It is one of the weak link in IEP, though
>>>>>> they knew the importance of this program, but they have their own set of
>>>>>> obligations/mindset, and we always felt that not all the faculty members
>>>>>> are tracking the students and their articles. We have some exemplary Profs
>>>>>> who are so much involved that they reached every student's talk page and
>>>>>> wrote message on it, and on the other side few never opened the course page
>>>>>> itself!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lesson for us is to enroll only those who are really interested and
>>>>>> track them as well, drop the course if they are not putting effort as
>>>>>> required, but this scenario was different 6 months back, coz no one knew
>>>>>> about this program, and yes we did enrolled a few inactive faculty coz they
>>>>>> showed interest but never lived up to the expectation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. *Online Ambassadors* : As Hisham already told that we got very
>>>>>> late engagement of our OAs in this program as well as the OA expectation
>>>>>> issue, we never got the support which was required from an OA. Honestly
>>>>>> speaking there was no interaction between OAs and CAs and without
>>>>>> that coordination chances of success are quite low.
>>>>>> My only point here is to all the OAs in this discussion is that if
>>>>>> Hisham/Nitika has not set the expectations right, why didn't you approached
>>>>>> them, then and there! Anybody can come and comment on this failure story
>>>>>> but even you were a part of this sinking ship.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4. *India Community* : We really missed you throughout this program,
>>>>>> I can't recall a single instance when an Indian Administrator came forward
>>>>>> and found a copyvio/poor editing, etc. We don't bifurcate among community
>>>>>> and we never taught our students that only Indian community will help, our
>>>>>> aim was to make their "collaborative" skill better instead of creating a
>>>>>> division among the community.
>>>>>> For my fellow Indian Wiki Community, folks we would love to hear from
>>>>>> you and surely need your help and support in future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5. *Global Community* : Firstly I would say "Thank you" to them for
>>>>>> teaching the harsh lessons but we really liked the way you guys supported
>>>>>> us. Yes, I know few folks who always crib and do the mud throwing on this
>>>>>> program and it's implementation, but I know folks who have helped writing
>>>>>> great articles, reviewing them and event doing copy-editing and cleaning.
>>>>>> We need to surely communicate better with them in future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6. *Campus Ambassadors*: The best thing that happen to me coz of IEP
>>>>>> is I found great friends who share the same philosophy of free knowledge.
>>>>>> We gave our personal time not only in taking session but also training new
>>>>>> bunch of CAs and helping students in every possible way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We were the face of Wikipedia on campus and we love it!
>>>>>> Like Srikanth said yes we were overloaded coz of the number of
>>>>>> students per CA was very large still we did our bit to help every students
>>>>>> by either reaching out personally and virtually.
>>>>>> One point to note here that out of 40 selected CAs(Gen 1 & 2) only 30
>>>>>> are active and out of those 30 only 20 track/follow and reach out students,
>>>>>> so in short we need more involvements for the dormant CAs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 7. *Students* : We found good and bad students, student I know has
>>>>>> written a GA and I also know a student who in-spite of several warnings by
>>>>>> phone/mail and personal visits they kept copy-paste! Between the two
>>>>>> extremes there are folks who failed few times but did learned from it and
>>>>>> had become great editors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All in all the learning here is to, assess the level of students
>>>>>> based on their skill(writing especially) and their educational
>>>>>> background(rural or urban). Also we need to teach them the most important
>>>>>> thing, NOT TO COPY PASTE!!!, from the very first day of the wiki sessions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Summary*: We are challenging the status quo by bringing a new way
>>>>>> of learning and teaching things and have learned some essential lessons for
>>>>>> making this program a success in future. I would personally request my
>>>>>> fellow Wikipedians to keep a faith on us and support us in every possible
>>>>>> way coz *"helping hands are better than praying lips"*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's make this world a better place!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Ram
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 9:00 PM, Srikanth Lakshmanan <
>>>>>> srik.lak at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 20:15, Theo10011 <de10011 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Nitika <ntandon at wikimedia.org>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would also like to share with you all some of the good articles
>>>>>>>>> that students have written.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nitika, please use right terms from next time, "Good articles" mean
>>>>>>> entirely different thing in Wikipedia. http://enwp.org/WP:GA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Robinson Crusoe Economy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinson_Crusoe_Economy>
>>>>>>>> -Another redirect, 'economy' is in lower-case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Theo,
>>>>>>> You got it wrong on that alone to best of my knowledge, probably you
>>>>>>> did it too fast. Its probably the lone GA which got churned out of the
>>>>>>> program and we could call it a lone success among several other things.
>>>>>>> Wish that editor continues wiki editing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Srikanth.L
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>>>>>>> Wikimediaindia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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