As Ido says, Amir might be very right on his skepticism. There are some big
challenges, surmountable for sure, but they should be taken into account:
1) Finding the right people: this can prove to be a difficult if not
impossible task. Here we are assuming that inside each language community
there might be a few people committed enough to dedicate themselves to
record their own language, and perhaps rich enough to do it on a volunteer
basis (here by "rich" I mean "with enough free time and resources").
It
might be true in some affluent societies, but it cannot expected to be the
norm.
2) Technology: then again, in order to empower certain individuals, they
need to have some tech knowledge already. Or spend a lot of effort creating
simple workflows... which sometimes takes more effort than the task you
want to simplify.
3) and finally you need a common language to communicate with them and
transfer the know-how, which might not necessarily be English...
I think it is kind of naive to offer the same kind of tools to each
language-society and expect the same results... Wikisource is perfect for
languages with an existing written record and a society that has reached a
certain development level.... this is of course a nice tool that hasn't
reached its full potential yet, but it cannot be used for *every* case.
Things that can work:
a) reach out to the linguists and invite them to share their field
notes/research data/other on commons/wiktionary/wikisource
b) downsize the tech tools: If a language has only oral tradition, then
maybe it is better to provide devices that can record audio (easy to
operate) instead of teaching how to use a computer (difficult). Or request
to the NSA all their recorded phone conversations...
c) adopt a 2001's monolith strategy: they are silent, patient, and when
they notice a spark, they catalyze the reaction. Aim for long time spans.
With all this I don't mean that nothing should be done, but that it should
be identified realistically what can be done now, identify which signs to
look for that could trigger an intervention, and how could it all help
future efforts. For instance, every spoken word recorded now could be
automatically transcribed in 50 years by an automated system. Same for
written records. Or when the number of internet users in a particular
language reaches a certain number that could trigger an event to facilitate
community building.
In any case I appreciate your efforts in bringing this topic into the
limelight.
Cheers,
Micru
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:37 PM, ido ivri <idoivri(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I second what Amir is saying, although I understand
the heartbreak.
Ido
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Andrea Zanni)
2. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Chris Keating)
3. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive
(Amir E. Aharoni)
4. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Milos Rancic)
5. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive
(Amir E. Aharoni)
6. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Milos Rancic)
7. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Milos Rancic)
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:18:53 +0200
From: Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
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[snip]
For the things we could do, I quote form other people:
* encourage Wikisource, Commons, Wiktionary as primary projects for
new/endangered languages.
You could scan books or documents if the language is written, or record
audio/interviews and put that on Commons if t the language is just oral.
or
we could do both.
* we can work on a "kickstart Wikisource" workflow, we are alreading
discussing this on the Wikisource mailing list (Ganesh and other Nepalese
folks are interested in developing a Nepalese Wikisource).
* we can work on
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary and
try
to takle the huge challenge of a real semantic
wiktionary using Wikidata.
That's a tough one, but i can't wait it to happen.
All these 3 points are mid-term and reachable. as others said, they are
just tools, and for preserving a language, not make it survive.
Aubrey
(sorry for poor english, just before coffee)
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
This is not quite correct. It's very hard,
but possible. But Wikimedia
alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by
the
> cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages needs
> people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare
I
> say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's the
sine qua non. Wikimedia is
just a
tool - a
very important one, but not the main one.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2014-04-22 14:20 GMT+03:00 Ting Chen <wing.philopp(a)gmx.de>de>:
> Hello Milos,
>
> welcome back.
>
> Basically I agree with your attitude, with one difference:
>
> I don't think that anyone can help languages survive. What we can do,
is
> > to help conserve them.
> >
> > Greetings
> > Ting
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe:
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:25:54 +0100
From: Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
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I'd certainly take quite a broad view of which languages fulfill our
mission. Certainly I wouldn't be comfortable with arguments as simple as
"All people who speak Y also read X, so there's no purpose putting
resources into Y".
Wikimedia UK does little work with Gaelic, but quite a bit with Welsh; I
wonder if Robin Owain reads this list? He's a good person to speak to
about
this.
Chris
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
This is not quite correct. It's very hard,
but possible. But Wikimedia
alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by
the
> cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages needs
> people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare
I
> say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's the
sine qua non. Wikimedia is
just a
tool - a
very important one, but not the main one.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2014-04-22 14:20 GMT+03:00 Ting Chen <wing.philopp(a)gmx.de>de>:
> Hello Milos,
>
> welcome back.
>
> Basically I agree with your attitude, with one difference:
>
> I don't think that anyone can help languages survive. What we can do,
is
> > to help conserve them.
> >
> > Greetings
> > Ting
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:37:40 +0300
From: "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
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I cannot cite anything, but there should be studies that show that even
though most people are "bilingual" or reported as "bilingual" in
their
regional language and another major language, they are more comfortable
in
getting education in their regional language.
I'm pretty sure that there
are such cases, and they should be given priority. Projects that are
focused on language revitalization per se should be given less priority
when resources are limited, even though it breaks my heart to say this.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2014-04-22 15:25 GMT+03:00 Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com>om>:
> I'd certainly take quite a broad view of which languages fulfill our
> mission. Certainly I wouldn't be comfortable with arguments as simple
as
> "All people who speak Y also read X, so
there's no purpose putting
> resources into Y".
>
> Wikimedia UK does little work with Gaelic, but quite a bit with Welsh;
I
wonder if
Robin Owain reads this list? He's a good person to speak to
about
> this.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
> amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
>
> > This is not quite correct. It's very hard, but possible. But
Wikimedia
> > alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be
one of the tools that are used
by
> the
> > cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages needs
> > people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and,
dare
> I
>
> say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's
the sine qua non. Wikimedia is
> just a
> > > tool - a very important one, but not the main one.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > >
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> > > “We're living in pieces,
> > > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
> > >
> > >
> > > 2014-04-22 14:20 GMT+03:00 Ting Chen <wing.philopp(a)gmx.de>de>:
> > >
> > > > Hello Milos,
> > > >
> > > > welcome back.
> > > >
> > > > Basically I agree with your attitude, with one difference:
> > > >
> > > > I don't think that anyone can help languages survive. What we
can
do,
is
> > to help conserve them.
> >
> > Greetings
> > Ting
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:43:56 +0200
From: Milos Rancic <millosh(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
<amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
This is not quite correct. It's very hard,
but possible. But Wikimedia
alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by
the
> cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages needs
> people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare
I
> say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's the
sine qua non. Wikimedia is
just a
tool - a
very important one, but not the main one.
In the case of Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic, there is a not widely known
fact that he was actually hard worker willing to listen others. He was
a villager from Serbia, sent to Austria and Germany to learn how to
help his people.
In relation to gathering spoken folk tradition, he was listening brothers
Grimm.
But, more importantly, the ideology and actually the final form of the
modern Serbian Cyrillic alphabet, as well as Vuk's logistics in Vienna
were the product of a Slovene [[Jernej Kopitar]].
In our case, we need to find those hard workers all over the small
ethno-linguistic communities, explain what they should do for
themselves and give them logistics. That, of course, *if* they are
willing to that part of job for their communities and *if* they want
to build their knowledge in the form of Wikimedia projects.
BTW, I know that what I said above sounds enlightenmentish, with all
of the traps of that way of thinking. However, it's not about how they
should live. It's about how they could adopt our technology *if* they
want.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:49:28 +0300
From: "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
Message-ID:
<
CACtNa8t_1j4H18_pg3Dq3ewDnWiAEEsZX1d+JNtN3y449vcNFw(a)mail.gmail.com>
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With this I agree. If this depended on me, I'd give this resources.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2014-04-22 15:43 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic <millosh(a)gmail.com>om>:
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
> <amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
> > This is not quite correct. It's very hard, but possible. But
Wikimedia
> > alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be
one of the tools that are used
by
> the
> > cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages needs
> > people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and,
dare
> I
>
> say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's
the sine qua non. Wikimedia is
> just a
> > > tool - a very important one, but not the main one.
> >
> > In the case of Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic, there is a not widely known
> > fact that he was actually hard worker willing to listen others. He was
> > a villager from Serbia, sent to Austria and Germany to learn how to
> > help his people.
> >
> > In relation to gathering spoken folk tradition, he was listening
brothers
Grimm.
But, more importantly, the ideology and actually the final form of the
modern Serbian Cyrillic alphabet, as well as Vuk's logistics in Vienna
were the product of a Slovene [[Jernej Kopitar]].
In our case, we need to find those hard workers all over the small
ethno-linguistic communities, explain what they should do for
themselves and give them logistics. That, of course, *if* they are
willing to that part of job for their communities and *if* they want
to build their knowledge in the form of Wikimedia projects.
BTW, I know that what I said above sounds enlightenmentish, with all
of the traps of that way of thinking. However, it's not about how they
should live. It's about how they could adopt our technology *if* they
want.
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:54:31 +0200
From: Milos Rancic <millosh(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
Message-ID:
<
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
<amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
Projects that are focused on language
revitalization per se should be
given less priority when resources are limited, even though it breaks
my heart to say this.
I don't think that we are dealing here with limited resources. After
we show what we are doing and how successful we are (assuming that
we'll be successful, of course :D ), I am sure that funds won't be
limited just on WMF's budget.
However, we are dealing with limited resources at the beginning and,
basically, not seen scale of the job, with a lot of potential issues.
I don't think that we'll come into the stable phase in less than five
years of work. And it's true that this is enough time to see negative
changes in some of the languages.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:09:52 +0200
From: Milos Rancic <millosh(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
Message-ID:
<CAHPiQ2FOU4CQ1=_+nE22aWoz=
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On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Chris Keating
<chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Wikimedia UK does little work with Gaelic, but quite a bit with Welsh;
I
wonder if
Robin Owain reads this list? He's a good person to speak to
about
this.
I mentioned Scots Gaelic with a good reason. Not counting languages
with so small number of speakers, that statistics for them are not
relevant and not counting Sanskrit, known to a lot of linguists,
gd.wikipedia.org is Wikipedia with the highest relative number of
active editors.
That means that it's the best starting point to raise that number from
157 per million to ~1000 per million. If WM UK would be successful in
achieving that goal, we'd know that it's possible. And we'll have some
ideas how to do that.
[1]
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/Sitemap.htm
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********************************************
--
-Ido
"There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary,
and those who don't."
(unknown)
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