[WikiEN-l] Block appeals--just don't follow the instructions? Huh?

[Wily D]

On 9/16/07, K P <kpbotany at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/16/07, Wily D <wilydoppelganger at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 9/16/07, K P <kpbotany at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 9/16/07, Wily D <wilydoppelganger at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On 9/16/07, K P <kpbotany at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On 9/13/07, Wily D <wilydoppelganger at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > The short answer is: If I block someone, it's not like I have to
> > > > > > respond to their emails anyhow.    While it'd be nice to enable an
> > > > > > email address - if I'm not taking emails, it'd be better if that was
> > > > > > clear, rather than dishonestly letting them sit in an "in" bin
> > > > > > forever.  Anybody's who's been blocked can request a review from a
> > > > > > second admin anyhow {{unblock|reason}}
> > > > > >
> > > > > > WilyD
> > > > > >
> > > > > That's a rather hostile attitude to take towards the community of
> > > > > editors, that you can block, and their response to the block doesn't
> > > > > matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Start by finding out when your block will expire....
> > > > > If you do not wish to wait for your block to expire, you may contact
> > > > > the blocking administrator via email to resolve the problem that led
> > > > > to the block. To use this feature you must have a valid email address
> > > > > registered in your user preferences. If, after discussing the matter
> > > > > with them, you still believe your block is unfair, you may appeal the
> > > > > block by requesting that another administrator review your block.
> > > > >
> > > > > But it's a total lie that "you may contact the blocking administrator
> > > > > via e-mail to resolve the problem."  Becaue you can't contact the
> > > > > blocking administrator via email and even if you can, they don't have
> > > > > to respond, and they're rather smug about telling everyone they're
> > > > > free to ignore you.
> > > > >
> > > > > What's wrong with this picture?  Just about everything.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, in other words, it should say, "You may attempt to contact the
> > > > > blocking administrator via e-mail" but the blocking adminstrator is
> > > > > not required to have e-mail enabled, and might not respond to you, and
> > > > > damn proudly not respond, either.
> > > > >
> > > > > KP
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > > > WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > > > >
> > > > KP
> > > >
> > > > Please don't misunderstand me.  I pre-emptively offer to undo almost
> > > > every block it's realistic for I'm involved in.  I mostly get
> > > > criticising for offering to unblock people, not block them.  And I
> > > > don't think anyone's going to fault me for not listening, even if I
> > > > might not ever be won over.  Roughly speaking, the attitude I'm
> > > > presenting there is not my own, but I acknowledge that it may exist
> > > > and then what?
> > > >
> > > > My point is just that requiring admins to enable email so people
> > > > they've blocked can email them is pointless.  {{unblock|reason}} is by
> > > > far the best way to challenge an inappropriate block.  Then you'll get
> > > > someone who is looking to review blocks.  Not all admins *do* respond
> > > > to every request of them, sometimes for good reasons, maybe sometimes
> > > > for bad.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > WilyD
> > > >
> > > But that's not what the instructions for unblock say.  They say to
> > > discuss it first with the blocking admin, and IF you do that are
> > > unsuccessful you may then proceed to request a review.  They don't say
> > > use {{unblock|reason}}.  By not enabling email you' ve denied people
> > > you've blocked any access to requesting an unblock.
> > >
> > > I've been blocked once, by an admin who has gone through a couple of
> > > RFCs and an ArbCom.  When I emailed a request to him to be unblocked
> > > he posted nasty comments about my email, lied, to incite me on AN/I.
> > > It was a stunning display of boorish and immature behaviour, though
> > > certainly not unexpected from an admin who called an editor a douche.
> > > If I could have bipassed e-mailing the little twirp, I certainly would
> > > have, but it was clear that I was supposed to request unblock from the
> > > little shit first.
> > >
> > > Now you tell me you can't be bothered to even get e-mails.  If the
> > > policy requires you to email the blocking admin first in order to
> > > appeal the block, then all blocking admins should enable their email.
> > > Or admins should just admit that blocks are not appealable and they
> > > have the power to do whatever they want regardless.
> > >
> > > This is grossly insulting to us worthless little shit peon editors on
> > > Wikipedia whatever the reason.
> > >
> > > It is.
> > >
> > > KP
> > >
> > > The blocking message:
> > > Start by finding out when your block will expire. Go to my
> > > contributions and follow the Block log link at the top of the page. If
> > > there are no blocks listed, or the latest one has already expired,
> > > then you have been autoblocked. Please follow the instructions listed
> > > in the section (on AutoBlocking) below.
> > > If you do not wish to wait for your block to expire, you may contact
> > > the blocking administrator via email to resolve the problem that led
> > > to the block. To use this feature you must have a valid email address
> > > registered in your user preferences. If, after discussing the matter
> > > with them, you still believe your block is unfair, you may appeal the
> > > block by requesting that another administrator review your block. To
> > > do so, add
> > >
> > > {{unblock|your reason here}}
> > > to the bottom of your user talk page (which you can edit while
> > > blocked, unless it is protected) to request unblocking. Please be
> > > aware that abuse of this template will result in protection of that
> > > page.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >
> > KP
> >
> > If you'll look at the list of admins without emails enabled, you'll
> > see my name isn't on the list.  If you look through my block log,
> > you'll see I've reduced a block in response to an unblock request, and
> > that none of my other blocks have been undone by anyone.
> >
> > Beyond that, I would agree the phrasing should be changed to suggest
> > the "best" practice should be to discuss it with the blocking admin,
> > who is probably far more likely to reverse or reduce the block than
> > anyone else is anyways, and that the "alternative" practice is the
> > unblock template.
> >
> > Everything can be undone, any block can be appealed (including to the
> > unblock mailing list).  I agree that your scenario might be grossly
> > insulting if it were true.  But it's not.  Blocks are easily
> > appealable.
> >
> > In any event, I've fixed the blocking message.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > WilyD
> >
>
> Blocks are NOT easily appealable when you have a hostile and petty
> blocking administrator and a policy that requires you to contact him
> first.  And when you don't realize that you're not required to contact
> him first in spite of the blocking message which tells you that.
>
> And, when you're a new contributor to Wikipedia and you get blocked
> and you don't know your way around, it is NOT CLEAR that the
> instructions are not meant to be followed.
>
> And this gets tiresome being told that the instructions are not meant
> to be followed and everybody knows their way around them, as if I'm
> stupid for not realizing that the instructions don't mean what they
> say, and I shouldn't be following them but some other set of
> guidelines.
>
> I am getting the idea ingrained into my head, though, from a couple of
> past conversations with administrators, that I AM a total idiot for
> trying to follow instructions on Wikipedia.
>
> It's not an issue of just you, it's an issue of the system being set
> up in a way that is hostile to the average user.  Instructions that
> shouldn't be followed.  Experienced users dismissing the confusion of
> inexperienced users by saying, "oh blocks are easily appealable," when
> the inexerienced user points out they are not.  If you already know
> everything, you probably don't even know what the instructions say.
> But if you don't already know everything, you can't possibly know that
> it's easy to do as long as you don't bother with the instructions.
>
> It is very frustrating when Wikipedia is treated as a closed club of
> those who already know everything (blocks are easily appealed)
> excluding those who are just here to edit and don't know the easy way
> to do things that don't appear in the instructions.
>
> The blocking message still says the same thing it did.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Blockedtext
>
> KP
>
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Err, yes.  The instructions are often terrible and confusing.  If
there's a problem with the instructions, fix them.  Beyond that ..
yes, it's not always easy to find stuff.  And yeah, instructions are
often bad or out of date, trying to follow them doesn't always work.
I was an inexperienced editor once, and didn't always find the help I
looked for.  I learnt, and now I can usually find it.  But how do we
fix that?  We help people that need it.  We fix instructions that need
fixing.

I only meant to say that forcing every admin to turn on email wasn't a
good solution, because it wouldn't work.  The same problem remained.
It's all well and good to be upset that the problem exists, better is
to fix it.  Solutions that don't fix the problem aren't worth
pursuing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3ABlockedtext&diff=158298239&oldid=155601130
the blocked message does not say the same thing it did.  Try clearing
your cache.

Cheers,
WilyD