[WikiEN-l] Misogyny is the perfect troll

[Marc Riddell]

on 8/31/07 12:12 AM, Steven Walling at steven.walling at gmail.com wrote:

> Well, actually, I am quite offended by the wide usage of pimp as well. I
> would even say it's become the "faggot" of misogynistic terms. But honestly,
> though I support removing it from userboxes and such as hate speech (look
> out! loaded word) I think that Wikipedia is a microcosm of the larger
> problem, and sadly, I doubt you're going to get things changed on-wiki so
> long as the term is culturally acceptable off wiki.

Steven,

A culture, and the values it promotes, is formed by the members of a
specific group of people. Can't Wikipedia have, and promote, one of its own?
It's called setting an example - not following one.

Marc Riddell

> 
> On 8/30/07, K P <kpbotany at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On 8/30/07, Steven Walling <steven.walling at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I think this thread needs to end if we continue to get so personal.
>> Whatever
>>> my feelings on the need for a discussion about this kind of
>> discrimination
>>> on Wikipedia, accusatory comments like "...is misogynist crap.  But
>> you're
>>> not offended at that at all." are unacceptable. It may be that you were
>>> shouted down, even if you had legit arguments, because you ran around
>>> proclaiming everyone who disagreed with you to be a misogynist. Let's
>> have a
>>> civil conversation, or none at all.
>>> 
>>> On 8/30/07, K P <kpbotany at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On 8/30/07, michael west <michawest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> How many editors actually check what gender another editor is? Even
>> user
>>>>> pages can be vague unless the editor actually states they are male
>> or
>>>>> female. Personal names don't help Stacey, Kimberley, Chris etc and
>> as
>>>> for
>>>>> edits [[Knitting]] and [[Women in prison film]] are not an
>> indication.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mysogeny doesn't work on Wikipedia for the simple reason that all
>> the
>>>> female
>>>>> editors I know are perhaps stronger willed or ready to cut the BS
>> before
>>>> it
>>>>> happens. Or is it mysogenist to suggest that?
>>>>> 
>>>>> mike33
>>>> 
>>>> Actually it works quite well if you disagree with something misogynist
>>>> on Wikipedia--when you think comments like, "gotta keep the pimp hand
>>>> strong" are offensive for example.  (Although nicely it turned out to
>>>> be a wimp hand, and ain't so strong anymore.)
>>>> 
>>>> So, you've never seen anything misogynist on Wikipedia?  And if you
>>>> have, did you speak up?  Again, I suggest that certain people are more
>>>> likely to notice it than others.  And others, those comfortable being
>>>> a member of the club as it is, less likely.
>>>> 
>>>> I've seen plenty, and when I've spoken up, I've been thoroughly put in
>>>> my place, ganged up on by hords of male, and some female, editors
>>>> ready to make sure that the boys continue to have a safe place to
>>>> play.
>>>> 
>>>> Making a user box declaring yourself a pimp, and connecting it to the
>>>> article on pimp, in the ordinary sense of "seller of sexual access to
>>>> women's bodies for profit" sense, is misogynist crap.  But you're not
>>>> offended at that at all.
>>>> 
>>>> KP
>>>> 
>> I didn't call anyone a misogynist, another editor called someone's
>> comment "misogynistic."  I said that people were ignoring the
>> potential and very real hurtful nature of the word in order to defend
>> someone's supposedly modern use of it--it turned out the user was
>> lying to everyone about his use of it, but that's another store.  No,
>> someone else used the term "misogynist."
>> 
>> And I didn't call you one by saying you're not offended by that--a
>> legitimate comment because no one is outraged, surprised, or even
>> interested by people proudly proclaiming themselves pimps on
>> Wikipedia. And to me, this is outrageous that nobody even notices it.
>> 
>> And that, that women are degraded on Wikipedia without other editors
>> even noticing it, is not civil in any way.
>> 
>> So, whenever I'm invited to a place where women can have civil
>> conversations, without being degraded as part of the background noise,
>> I'll be sure to let you know there's a place for a civil conversation.
>> But when no one cares that folks are proud to declare themselves
>> pimps, that that's not one of the user boxes or user names that is
>> considered offensive on Wikipedia, even when it is linked to an
>> article about pimp in the old fashioned sense of the word, not in the
>> vernacular or modern or changed sense, there is no civility.
>> 
>> We're already having none at all.   Civility is a long way off.
>> 
>> KP
>> 
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