<div>I think that some people may have a police state mentality around these parts. But, of course, there are wonderful diligent people, too. I enjoy looking up odd subjects that help in my research -- whether college dating or hazing.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Kind regards, Mig --<br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:00 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gendergap-request@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap-request@lists.wikimedia.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of Gendergap digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: Am I crazy? (B?ria Lima)<br> 2. Re: Am I crazy? (Nathan)<br>
3. Re: Am I crazy? (Daniel and Elizabeth Case)<br> 4. Re: Am I crazy? (Daniel and Elizabeth Case)<br> 5. Re: Am I crazy? (Nathan)<br> 6. Re: Am I crazy? (Lady of Shalott)<br> 7. Re: Am I crazy? (Sue Gardner)<br> 8. Re: Am I crazy? (Gillian White)<br>
<br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:12:49 +0100<br>From: B?ria Lima <<a href="mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt">beria.lima@wikimedia.pt</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?<br>To: <a href="mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net">fredbaud@fairpoint.net</a>, Increasing female participation in<br> Wikimedia projects <<a href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br> <<a href="mailto:CAA2XHjBUR3v-KNc2T4BBde12Tju0rkyL3XmW7LroLKS%2B338F3w@mail.gmail.com">CAA2XHjBUR3v-KNc2T4BBde12Tju0rkyL3XmW7LroLKS+338F3w@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>><br>> *It would not have to be a gender related issue for this to occur.*<br>><br><br>Fred is right in that point. I'm not a gender editor (my articles almost<br>never have problems with gender issues), however, the topic is one where you<br>
can find the most biased people on earth: Religion.<br><br>And I would say you case was not the worst one, the worst case i can imagine<br>(and already happened with me several times) is to remove biased info (or<br>include NPOV info) in an article about a religion / god / dogma who is<br>
watched by some believer of the same god / religion. ;)<br>_____<br>*B?ria Lima*<br>Wikimedia Portugal <<a href="http://wikimedia.pt/" target="_blank">http://wikimedia.pt</a>><br>(351) 963 953 042<br><br>*Imagine um mundo onde ? dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre<br>
acesso ao somat?rio de todo o conhecimento humano. ? isso o que estamos a<br>fazer.*<br><br><br>On 24 October 2011 18:54, Fred Bauder <<a href="mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net">fredbaud@fairpoint.net</a>> wrote:<br><br>
> > I've never particularly felt the "boys club" atmosphere on Wikipedia<br>> > that apparently deters some women. However, I am very angry right now.<br>> > I tried to add [[date rape]] as a "see also" link to the very<br>
> > incomplete article [[college dating]]. The relevance seemed obvious to<br>> > me. It was removed by two separate people, and when I took it to the<br>> > talk page, its relevance was questioned, and I was told to "prove it"<br>
> > because it was "obvious to whom?" Fine. I've proven it with sourcing,<br>> > adding a small section. I think that needed to happen anyway, but I'm<br>> > infuriated that I could not just add a see also link to it and tell<br>
> > the students who are really working on the article that a section<br>> > needed adding. (The people who removed the link are seasoned<br>> > Wikipedians, not members of the class developing the article.) Am I<br>
> > crazy?<br>> ><br>> > LadyofShalott<br>><br>> No, that is the usual reaction of biased editors of all persuasions, to<br>> throw their mind out of gear, when obvious conclusions which contradict<br>
> their bias are advanced.<br>><br>> It would not have to be a gender related issue for this to occur.<br>><br>> Fred<br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Gendergap mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a><br>> <a href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap" target="_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap</a><br>
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<br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 2<br>Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:13:52 -0400<br>From: Nathan <<a href="mailto:nawrich@gmail.com">nawrich@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?<br>To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects<br>
<<a href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>Message-ID:<br> <<a href="mailto:CALKX9dQuYM_3jyBfPSuNw7M3fkwrMdPeCsegvFPWXYXNZOfWDw@mail.gmail.com">CALKX9dQuYM_3jyBfPSuNw7M3fkwrMdPeCsegvFPWXYXNZOfWDw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br><br>I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with.<br>If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish,<br>the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.<br>
<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 3<br>Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:16:10 -0400<br>From: "Daniel and Elizabeth Case" <<a href="mailto:dancase@frontiernet.net">dancase@frontiernet.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?<br>To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"<br> <<a href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>Message-ID: <6BC79C0C9DE44D779B5156A841AC35A9@Dcase102796><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";<br> reply-type=original<br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Nathan<br>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM<br>To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects<br>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?<br><br>I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with.<br>If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish,<br>the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.<br>
<br><br> On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:<br><br> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating</a><br>
<br>Daniel Case<br><br><br><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 4<br>Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:17:46 -0400<br>From: "Daniel and Elizabeth Case" <<a href="mailto:dancase@frontiernet.net">dancase@frontiernet.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?<br>To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"<br> <<a href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>Message-ID: <5EA72D57C76A4108AA835C2356056251@Dcase102796><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";<br> reply-type=original<br><br><br><br>Well, it's not rectified yet. The one source I've given thus far is<br>not enough apparently. I have to add more.<br>
<br> Already done:<br><br> <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/25/nyregion/new-policy-is-aimed-at-preventing-date-rape-on-campuses.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/25/nyregion/new-policy-is-aimed-at-preventing-date-rape-on-campuses.html</a><br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=College_dating&diff=457185120&oldid=457178405" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=College_dating&diff=457185120&oldid=457178405</a><br>
<br>Daniel Case<br><br><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 5<br>Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:24:15 -0400<br>From: Nathan <<a href="mailto:nawrich@gmail.com">nawrich@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?<br>
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects<br> <<a href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>Message-ID:<br> <CALKX9dReBo2wwjU3n45Qi6f7xQru8Ob_=<a href="mailto:LidSRmPpDjMovS-Rg@mail.gmail.com">LidSRmPpDjMovS-Rg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br><br>Not convinced by the AfD. "Snow" kept after less than 24 hours, based<br>on one substantial vote and a bunch of "what he said" votes that<br>didn't address whether "college dating" is so distinct a phenomena<br>
that it needs to be treated separately from [[dating]]. A search<br>string of +college +dating is obviously going to return a lot of<br>results, that doesn't prove notability - and notability isn't the only<br>concern.<br>
<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 6<br>Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:25:30 -0400<br>From: Lady of Shalott <<a href="mailto:ladyofshalott.wp@gmail.com">ladyofshalott.wp@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?<br>
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects<br> <<a href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>Message-ID:<br> <<a href="mailto:CACv6LKfC6GPuSpDVmmQ8qGOC-LQ_JDUa4JA4hroCoYdEgoJQxg@mail.gmail.com">CACv6LKfC6GPuSpDVmmQ8qGOC-LQ_JDUa4JA4hroCoYdEgoJQxg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br><br>Thanks! Does someone here have access to the full article at<br><<a href="http://gas.sagepub.com/content/3/4/457.short" target="_blank">http://gas.sagepub.com/content/3/4/457.short</a>>?<br>
<br>LoS<br><br>On 10/24/11, Daniel and Elizabeth Case <<a href="mailto:dancase@frontiernet.net">dancase@frontiernet.net</a>> wrote:<br>><br>><br>> Well, it's not rectified yet. The one source I've given thus far is<br>
> not enough apparently. I have to add more.<br>><br>> Already done:<br>><br>><br>> <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/25/nyregion/new-policy-is-aimed-at-preventing-date-rape-on-campuses.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/25/nyregion/new-policy-is-aimed-at-preventing-date-rape-on-campuses.html</a><br>
><br>> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=College_dating&diff=457185120&oldid=457178405" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=College_dating&diff=457185120&oldid=457178405</a><br>
><br>> Daniel Case<br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Gendergap mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a><br>> <a href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap" target="_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap</a><br>
><br><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 7<br>Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:11:44 -0700<br>From: Sue Gardner <<a href="mailto:sgardner@wikimedia.org">sgardner@wikimedia.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?<br>
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects<br> <<a href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>Message-ID:<br> <CAGZ0=LP7uvTuG5uxGq_GtaJZ-ryCvz6yXs0dr=si0hSgEnNW=<a href="mailto:w@mail.gmail.com">w@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br><br>Yeah, personally I think the subject is notable. There has been tons<br>of academic research and popular history written about the history of<br>dating, college dating, the invention of the 'teenager,' etc. Even<br>
just within the United States.<br><br>I think I did a radio series on this once -- IIRC, Beth Bailey was a<br>really great source. She wrote this fascinating book:<br><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351</a>.<br>
Susan J. Douglas was good too, as well as Stephanie Coontz and Barbara<br>Ehrenreich. They are all American, though. Lots has been written about<br>the UK too, but I'm not sure about other cultures/countries.<br><br>Thanks,<br>
Sue<br><br><br>--<br>?Sue Gardner<br>Executive Director<br>Wikimedia Foundation<br><br><a href="tel:415%20839%206885" value="+14158396885">415 839 6885</a> office<br><a href="tel:415%20816%209967" value="+14158169967">415 816 9967</a> cell<br>
<br>Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in<br>the sum of all knowledge.? Help us make it a reality!<br><br><a href="http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate" target="_blank">http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate</a><br>
<br><br><br>On 24 October 2011 11:16, Daniel and Elizabeth Case<br><<a href="mailto:dancase@frontiernet.net">dancase@frontiernet.net</a>> wrote:<br>><br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: Nathan<br>
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM<br>> To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects<br>> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?<br>><br>> I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with.<br>
> If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish,<br>> the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.<br>><br>><br>> ? ?On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:<br>
><br>> ? ?<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating</a><br>><br>> Daniel Case<br>
><br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Gendergap mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a><br>> <a href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap" target="_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap</a><br>
><br><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 8<br>Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:00:55 +1100<br>From: Gillian White <<a href="mailto:whiteghost.ink@gmail.com">whiteghost.ink@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?<br>
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects<br> <<a href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>Message-ID:<br> <<a href="mailto:CAMrpCZUU0PNGiEADof9RtK3upeJhOSJ3r-Q9uZAgWWJBSDZmWw@mail.gmail.com">CAMrpCZUU0PNGiEADof9RtK3upeJhOSJ3r-Q9uZAgWWJBSDZmWw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>Apart from any content problems, the article had no context. It was not<br>linked to what should be regarded as its parents. And that lack of<br>coherence, combined with its specific terminology made it largely<br>
incomprehensible to people unfamiliar with American educational systems,<br>aside from its social practices. For example, it is by no means universal<br>that students live in residential colleges while attending university. I had<br>
a go at giving it some context so readers can go from one article to the<br>next (specifically, from "courtship" to "dating" to "college dating") but I<br>agree that it would be better if it was renamed, as the issues that are<br>
distinctive to dating in college/university could then be developed.<br><br>Gillian<br><br>On 25 October 2011 06:11, Sue Gardner <<a href="mailto:sgardner@wikimedia.org">sgardner@wikimedia.org</a>> wrote:<br><br>> Yeah, personally I think the subject is notable. There has been tons<br>
> of academic research and popular history written about the history of<br>> dating, college dating, the invention of the 'teenager,' etc. Even<br>> just within the United States.<br>><br>> I think I did a radio series on this once -- IIRC, Beth Bailey was a<br>
> really great source. She wrote this fascinating book:<br>> <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351</a><br>
> .<br>> Susan J. Douglas was good too, as well as Stephanie Coontz and Barbara<br>> Ehrenreich. They are all American, though. Lots has been written about<br>> the UK too, but I'm not sure about other cultures/countries.<br>
><br>> Thanks,<br>> Sue<br>><br>><br>> --<br>> ?Sue Gardner<br>> Executive Director<br>> Wikimedia Foundation<br>><br>> <a href="tel:415%20839%206885" value="+14158396885">415 839 6885</a> office<br>
> <a href="tel:415%20816%209967" value="+14158169967">415 816 9967</a> cell<br>><br>> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in<br>> the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!<br>
><br>> <a href="http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate" target="_blank">http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate</a><br>><br>><br>><br>> On 24 October 2011 11:16, Daniel and Elizabeth Case<br>> <<a href="mailto:dancase@frontiernet.net">dancase@frontiernet.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>> ><br>> > -----Original Message-----<br>> > From: Nathan<br>> > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM<br>> > To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects<br>> > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?<br>
> ><br>> > I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with.<br>> > If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish,<br>> > the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.<br>
> ><br>> ><br>> > On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:<br>> ><br>> ><br>> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating</a><br>
> ><br>> > Daniel Case<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > Gendergap mailing list<br>> > <a href="mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a><br>
> > <a href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap" target="_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap</a><br>> ><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>
> Gendergap mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a><br>> <a href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap" target="_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap</a><br>
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<br><br>End of Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 64<br>****************************************<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>
<div>Migdia & Cicero & Ulla & Tullia-Zoe & Clodia & Aurelius & Cato the Younger</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div><br>