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<pre wrap="">Message: 7
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:37:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Fred Bauder" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net"><fredbaud@fairpoint.net></a>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on
Wikimedia Commons
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org"><gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org></a>
Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:44058.66.243.192.69.1305736661.squirrel@webmail.fairpoint.net"><44058.66.243.192.69.1305736661.squirrel@webmail.fairpoint.net></a>
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<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:16, Fred Bauder <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net"><fredbaud@fairpoint.net></a>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>wrote:
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
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<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">>></span>
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<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> > </span>My point is this: a significant number of women (current and
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<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> </span>potential
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<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> > </span>editors) don't want to work in a "I like the big tits" atmosphere,
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> > </span>whatever
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> > </span>was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>do<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> mind.
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<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">>></span>
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<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> </span>So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> </span>sure
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> </span>you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> </span>heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> </span>The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> </span>sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> </span>who
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">>> </span>feel they are being treated unfairly.
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<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>I see it as an inane remark that's symptomatic of the culture, in the
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>sense
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>that the poster thought it appropriate to post it.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>Moving away from discussing this image now, to the broader issue, we do
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>see
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>a fair number of comments like that on Wikipedia, and letting them pass
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>without comment simply means they'll never stop.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>the
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>the
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>that
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>was,
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>and how he wanted to have her babies.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel)
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>that
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>about me, rather than about them.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>did
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>than
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>it.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>Not make a fuss.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>So that felt kind of depressing.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>Sarah
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<pre wrap="">Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns of the
dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text
fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would
happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate
feedback effectively. A polite note fails.
Fred
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Although I do encourage Sarah to speak her mind, I encourage her not to "scream it from the rooftops" because this could start a flame war. I definitely would not do that if I were you. But you also, as you said, not be too polite. Don't sugar coat things." That's my opinion I have never stumbled upon that on Wikipedia (I don't contribute especially often), and I hope I never do. However if I do, I will be sure to say something.
--With well wishes.
RDW2210
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