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Marc, I don't think you're improving the "communication problem" you
describe by telling people their ideas are "nonsense",
"self-serving", or "insulting". Yes, Laura's ideas are challenging,
but getting overly defensive doesn't help the discussion.<br>
<br>
Kaldari<br>
<br>
On 3/16/11 1:58 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:C9A69CBD.21234%25michaeldavid86@comcast.net"
type="cite">
<title>FW: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for
women and transgender, sublist for male supporters</title>
<br>
----------<br>
<b>From: </b>Marc Riddell <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:michaeldavid86@comcast.net"><michaeldavid86@comcast.net></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:49:32 -0400<br>
<b>To: </b>Laura Hale <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:laura@fanhistory.com"><laura@fanhistory.com></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main
list for women and transgender, sublist for male supporters<br>
<br>
Laura, your interpretation of my words is strikingly self-serving,
and your solutions would serve to widen whatever gap exists in the
Project. This entire "problem" is not one of gender, but of
individual persons having problems communicating with a particular
group of other persons. My question to all of those who state that
they have a problem communicating with, or feel intimidated by, a
male in the venue of a mailing list such as this, is do you have
the same problem in person? There are many, many strong,
intelligent voices in the Wikipedia Project who also happen to be
female. And to include them in this "gendergap", and suggest that
this is strictly a gender issue, is an insult to them.<br>
<br>
Marc<br>
<br>
on 3/16/11 4:06 PM, Laura Hale at <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:laura@fanhistory.com">laura@fanhistory.com</a> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote><br>
<br>
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Marc Riddell
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:michaeldavid86@comcast.net"><michaeldavid86@comcast.net></a> wrote:<br>
<blockquote>This is simply, nonsense! <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
That is your opinion, and you're welcome to it. In my
experience, there are two general groups of women:<br>
<br>
1. One who welcome men as participants in events specifically
targeting women, because the women feel the men can learn.<br>
2. One who don't want men involved because they feel women
should work towards their own self interests and that women
behave differently around men.<br>
<br>
<blockquote>Don't you people realize that separating this List<br>
into two distinct ones would underline, reinforce and actually
signify the<br>
very "gendergap" you are allegedly trying to resolve.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
This pretty much is why I think we need men off the list. While
you're intending to or not, I'm reading this as "Don't you
understand that the only way women can succeed it by having men
involved! You need men!" If you're not intending to send the
message: Women cannot succeed with out men!, then you may want
to reconsider your wording.<br>
<br>
And I'd argue the opposite: Men have done an awful job at
recruiting women to be involved with Wikipedia. The current
problems exist because men have tried to "solve" this problem.<br>
<br>
<blockquote>This is people talking<br>
with people. If there is a female or male here who has a
problem<br>
communicating with, or in the presence of, another gender -
they do have a<br>
problem.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Translation: "Women! You're the problem! If you could stop
engaging in female modes of communication, we could fix this
problem! "<br>
<br>
This list is NOT a general list for increasing the participation
rates of people. If you want to have a list dedicated to
generally increasing the participation rates of people on
Wikipedia, then fork off and do that.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote> But a website Mailing List such as this is not the
place to resolve<br>
it.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Am I supposed to interpret this as you claiming that this list
has a mission that will never succeed because it acknowledges
there are gender differences and different approaches are needed
to get different audiences? As a woman, a representative of a
minority group on Wikipedia, how am I supposed to respond to
you? I can tell you that this post of yours makes me feel
distinctly uncomfortable posting to this list. It seems to put
men in the position of power above women, demanding that women
participate only in male modes of communication, that women on
the list can't talk about genuine concerns they have as women
because they are going to get blown off, and that feelings of
men on the list are more important then women.<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
Gendergap mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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