<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"><div>If you want a to write a thread to a supportive group so you might figure how to address a situation that bothers you without being invalidated, Wikichix is more appropriate list this one.<br><br>If you want to write a thread about how we might achieve results in narrowing the gender-gap on Wikipedia and seeing some sort of shift happen within an open community this is the list to use. <br><br>Those are not value judgments. Both desires are valid and appropriate; just different.<br><br>Wikipedia is an open wiki. This means that every element of humanity that you despise, every element that despises what you love, and even elements which you were never really acquainted with before exist there. And none of these elements can be removed. They can be avoided. They
can be mitigated. But they will *always* be popping up. If we are going to wait until Wikipedia, or any open wiki, only involves dealing with people who are committed to being "cool" (liberal; in the older sense of the word), it will never happen. We have to shift the participation level on the wikis *as they exist*; not as we would like them to exist. Full of human beings from different cultures, with different understandings, and different capacities for empathy. We need to increase participation of women even as they are offended and confronted with misogyny. Not remove offense and misogyny in order to increase the participation of women. That is just not going to work on an open wiki. You can manage the removal of the most offensive and misogynist elements if you are reasonable and dedicated to doing so. But in an absolute sense it will not make much difference. Those women who are turned
off by the things that have been used as examples here these past few day, will still be turned off by what remains when those examples and everything of a similar level has been removed. There are many valid reasons for wanting so see the examples being brought here changed, but increasing the participation of women is not really one of them. <br><br>We will not succeed in closing the gender gap by spending our efforts failing to remove everything from an open wiki that turns women off Wikipedia. We will succeed in closing the gender gap when we are able to reach women and bring their attention to things in Wikipedia that will turn them on. Merely seeing an open wiki become somewhat less offensive to women will not make women passionate about Wikipedia. But women who are passionate about Wikipedia will give much less weight to those elements within an open wiki that offend them. <br><br>Birgitte SB<br></div><blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Sandra ordonez <sandratordonez@gmail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Fri, February 18, 2011 11:09:31 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Gendergap] [Fwd: Re: Women4Wikipedia]<br></font><br>
This is what I'm talking about - So the comment that had sexist undertones is not being discussed, but the fact that a comment was used to express frustrations is being analyzed? There has to be a commitment on this list that we are not going to reproduce the same behavior and environments that are so unattractive to women in the first place. Saying that someone is "scared" of a group with a high percentage of women, or telling a woman "ohh your wrong" when she shares her experience, is really not cool - particularly on this lsit! <div>
<br></div><div>sandy<br><br><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Fred Bauder <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net">fredbaud@fairpoint.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
> Fred, exactly why do you think hanging out in a woman-friendly<br>
> environment<br>
> would be so terrible? Perhaps if you could itemize for us what's wrong<br>
> with<br>
> people with vaginas being all up in your world, we could actually have a<br>
> discussion on the topic.<br>
<br>
A feminized environment is something rather different from a<br>
woman-friendly environment just as a masculinized environment such as a<br>
biker bar is different from an environment which welcomes men.<br>
<br>
Your language is interesting. Vaginas are hardly the center of attention<br>
in either a feminized or woman-friendly environment. As to "people with<br>
vaginas being all up in [my] world", certainly there are issues, but<br>
troublesome people come in all genders.<br>
<br>
Fred<br>
<br>
><br>
> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Fred Bauder<br>
> <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net">fredbaud@fairpoint.net</a>>wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Information for the list<br>
>><br>
>> This is the email I sent Sandra; hardly "a long email back stating that<br>
>> feminism shouldn't be about revenge. ..."<br>
>><br>
>> Sandra could we see the email you think you got?<br>
>><br>
>> Fred<br>
>><br>
>> --------------------------- Original Message<br>
>> ----------------------------<br>
>> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Women4Wikipedia<br>
>> From: "Fred Bauder" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net">fredbaud@fairpoint.net</a>><br>
>> Date: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:03 pm<br>
>> To: "Sandra" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:sandratordonez@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:sandratordonez@gmail.com">sandratordonez@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Serious, but actually it can be funny. A feminized environment is<br>
>> awkward<br>
>> for a man and provides opportunity for humor.<br>
>><br>
>> Fred<br>
>><br>
>> > Fred r u being funny or serious - I can't tell.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Sent from my iPhone<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:39 PM, "Fred Bauder" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net">fredbaud@fairpoint.net</a>><br>
>> > wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if<br>
>> 85%<br>
>> >>> of<br>
>> >>> its editors were female?<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> regards<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Rosie Williams<br>
>> >>><br><span>
>> >>> <a target="_blank" href="http://women4wikipedia">http://women4wikipedia</a></span><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> @collectiveact<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> It would be pretty awful. Scenes like that are not welcoming.<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5">>> >><br>
>> >> Fred<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> Gendergap mailing list<br>
>> >> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org">Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org</a><br>
>> >> <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap</a><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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>> <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap">https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap</a><br>
>><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Sandra Ordonez<br>Web Astronaut<br><br>"Helping you rock out in the virtual world."<br><br><b><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.collaborativenation.com">www.collaborativenation.com</a></b> <br>
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