[Foundation-l] Fwd: Wikimedia India Program Trust

Tue Nov 15 20:32:48 UTC 2011

I read Brion's email. It really worked, I discarded the first draft I wrote
in response, with the same tone and some links to grant pages and something
about conflict of interest, I was completely prepared to entrench. I came
back and re-read but didn't infer anything in Tinu's email to be in the
same vein as Brion. Every other line was a veiled reference or insinuation
about me or someone, along with a dozen questions. I don't have as much of
a problem with it as before it seems. But before I actually back away, and
do what Brion suggested, I want to clarify certain things.

I'm going to break the etiquette of public mailing lists a bit and talk
about something personal in my life that occupies my thoughts. In my day
job, I happen to manage a business. I have a person who has worked with us
for several years that lives next to our office. His wife, a mother of
three was diagnosed with a terminal illness 14 months ago. I usually see
their kids, all under the age of 12 pass by now and again, some days I have
the distinction of talking to them, on a few, telling them their mom is
going to be alright, that she'd be back from the doctor soon. I don't enjoy
doing that.

Then I come on these mailing lists, Meta and IRC at night, to see my
friends and distract myself. I offer my thoughts, and then get involved in
these exchanges. I see my friends being mentioned, along with things and
people I completely disagree with, some I find wrong or even insulting,
some times I get involved. Lately, I seem to be getting involved more and
more, deeper than I want. This is not why I got in this for, besides a
small period lasting 3 months last year where I was paid, I do it genuinely
because I love the projects.

In all these discussions, I sent 3 emails about the IEP, and a couple of
more 4 days ago. I thought, I had more to contribute about fund raising on
internal-l instead before this, spanning several dozen emails and
discussion on Meta in the last month. I'm not so sure anymore about either.

Honestly, I like Hisham, I have no problem with Nitika, absolutely none of
it is personal. I can and do like people personally while disagreeing with
what they say and do, and vice-versa. My critique was and is, strictly
about the work they do that affects the things I value. My tone which might
seem abrasive has been honed from years of reading talk pages and mailing
lists, some times a little abrasion is needed to make certain points stand
out.

When someone decides to lead a movement of people like me, I expect better
from them. Maybe I should expect less. I even had the pleasure of arguing
yesterday, if paid employees should be held to a lower standard.

Anyway, My passion and loyalty involved me in this particular cross-fire. I
don't value mediocrity, it should not be an excuse, neither should
rudeness. It also doesn't change any of my convictions either. I vehemently
believe the things I said. I don't think employees should be held to a
lower standard than any volunteer.

On the issue of "outsiders", well, maybe I'm wrong, maybe not. Maybe this
will come up again, it's not like I was the first one to bring it up on
internal. It is easy to talk about lofty ideals, and morals, and grandstand
about what a Movement should be. It is much harder to find a way to get
there. Lets drown out all the feedback and emotions when things like this
or the next filter or the next fundraising issue comes up, just rinse,
lather, repeat, that is how we improve, by not listening to what is
actually behind those emotions; keep giving all the time, energy and
concentration without questioning where it is all going. It is probably the
people held to a lower standard that will decide that.

I suppose it's easier to proclaim them leaders of the community, people who
agree when others seem to only attack, who remind others of the same lofty
principles while glossing over the abject realities and marks incurred in
the process.

Lastly, on the subject of eggnog e-mails, do make sure it's not your own
Kool-aid that you end up drinking instead.

And with that, I'm going to step back, I have said what I wanted to on this
subject. I have enough on my plate.

Tired and sleepy,
Theo

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:31 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
<tinucherian at gmail.com>wrote:

> I am not going the respond inline, as it may confuse many a readers like
> me. I will also try to answer below various questions/comments from
> multiple mails/ people. Some of my comments may be general and not directed
> to anyone in particular.
>
> I didn't mean to offend anyone, whether he is a chapter member or not. I
> reserve my right to free opinion just like anyone does. I didn't either
> intend to undermine the great works of anyone. I am aware that "whipping
> foundation label" is very cool these days, but I am not for it. I may have
> disagreements of some of the "foundation way" or "chapter way" , but I
> express my concerns on issues only.
>
> The reason that I had mentioned that the formation of trust was announced
> in earlier co-ordination meetings was that whosoever had concerns earlier
> could have raised it even then. The fact that Sunil Abraham was made as one
> of the trustees was indeed not mentioned in the meetings, all i meant was I
> think he is well eligible for his contributions as a trustee for the WIPT.
> Does every chapter share every minute things of its proceedings with the
> foundation or the community?
>
> I am not here to say whether hiring Hisham or any foundation staff is right
> to wrong. AFAIK, the foundation encouraged/s community members to apply for
> various positions and I could point to you a lots of examples where active
> community members have been hired. Everywhere possible, whenever eligible
> and qualified candidates from the community are available, they have been
> hired, AFAIK. If I choose to work on a volunteer basis on part time, it is
> my own wish... And if I want work on full time for the movement, without
> worrying about my daily bread, it is also my wish. The choice is strictly
> personal. So is it cool if some people joins the foundation and not when
> some other people ? We, Wikipedians, claim to be open & welcoming and vow
> to not bite the new comers, but in reality we form cabals and resists
> anyone new who comes to the movement, ...hah, ... they are all outsiders !
>
> "Oh I can whip everyone personally, but don't you dare to touch me"
> attitude is also not productive. I am tired of seeing foundation-l used for
> personal grudges and attacks. I am tired seeing sock puppet accounts been
> made to just launch personal attacks on individuals on the mailing
> lists/forums. It is not just one time, but many a times.
>
> So finally it all boils down to funding and money, right ? Who gets the
> bigger share and who gets the smaller share? Is that all we care about ? Is
> that why we are all in the movement? I would have been much personally much
> richer, if I  ( like many others) had put my energy, time and concentration
> elsewhere than putting on a movement that is very close to my/our hearts.
> Our family and friends would have much appreciated if we had spend time
> more with them, instead. But that is my/our choice and I am happy about it.
> We are just doing it because we are just passionate about it.
>
> Regards
> Tinu Cherian
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:42 AM, Béria Lima <berialima at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > *Having said that I must politely disagree with some of the views of
> > > Anirudh, my fellow Executive Member and Salmaan ( Theo) , a member of
> > > Wikimedia India chapter. But I do respect their personal views , but I
> > > guess we agree to disagree.
> > > *
> >
> >
> > So, your idea of "politeness" include offend other member of your
> chapter?
> > I already had been tagged as impolite, but not even I got that low. And
> > that create a second question: Is that office worth the price to divide
> the
> > chapter in 2 or more groups?
> >
> > * The news of the formation of Wikimedia India Program Trust wasn't
> > > anything new to the chapter EC as it was mentioned in last two Chapter
> -
> > > Foundation Co-ordination meetings, if I remember correctly.*
> > >
> >
> > So, WMF "remembered" to warn the chapter 2 months ago about a project
> they
> > are conducting for the past year? And you think that is ok? You can't see
> > the miscommunication here?
> >
> > *When it comes to "paid contractors/staff ", I don't see a difference
> > > between Theo[1] or Hisham, except that Hisham is working for a longer
> > term.
> > > So what?*
> > >
> >
> > I have not to add besides what Theo said. The main and bigger difference
> is
> > that one is a well know and long term wikimedian, the other happens to
> have
> > a job who deal with wikis.
> >
> > *The way I see is India is a land of immense potential for the Wikimedia
> > > Movement. IMHO, There is enough space of 10 chapters and Wikimedia
> > offices
> > > to co-exist and work together in India.*
> > >
> >
> > Did you ever read the Chapter Agreement you signed with WMF? That
> document
> > states that WMIN is the ONLY chapter of WMF in India, and that any one
> > organization must have their "approval" to work in Indian soil (I'm
> saying
> > that based in WMPT agreement, WMIN one might be different.)
> >
> > Best regards,
> > *Béria Lima*
> >
> > Who sincerely hope that this office don't became a arm of mass
> destruction
> > for Indian Chapter and community.
> > *
> >
> > Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
> livre
> > acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir
> > esse sonho. <http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos>*
> >
> >
> > On 14 November 2011 18:14, CherianTinu Abraham <tinucherian at gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > The following comments are my personal view and not necessarily of an
> > > Executive Member of the Wikimedia India Chapter.
> > >
> > > Having said that I must politely disagree with some of the views of
> > > Anirudh, my fellow Executive Member and Salmaan ( Theo) , a member of
> > > Wikimedia India chapter. But I do respect their personal views , but I
> > > guess we agree to disagree.
> > >
> > > The news of the formation of Wikimedia India Program Trust wasn't
> > anything
> > > new to the chapter EC as it was mentioned in last two Chapter -
> > Foundation
> > > Co-ordination meetings, if I remember correctly. And Sunil Abraham ,
> > > Director of Centre of Internet & Society ( CIS) is a patron of
> Wikimedia
> > > movement in India and chapter in India, not to forget that CIS have
> been
> > > sharing their office space for the chapter and Wikimeetups in
> Bangalore,
> > or
> > > all the help CIS was doing for boot strapping the chapter.
> > >
> > > When it comes to "paid contractors/staff ", I don't see a difference
> > > between Theo[1] or Hisham, except that Hisham is working for a longer
> > term.
> > > So what? Not every work can be done as a volunteer. As far as I
> > understand,
> > > the foundation is also committed to support the chapters and community
> > > alike.
> > >
> > > The way I see is India is a land of immense potential for the Wikimedia
> > > Movement. IMHO, There is enough space of 10 chapters and Wikimedia
> > offices
> > > to co-exist and work together in India.  When there are more than
> enough
> > > work to do, I don't understand why this hue and cry.
> > >
> > > There is only one who could diminish the importance of the chapter, the
> > > chapter itself. The road ahead for us is not easy but there are tons of
> > > things to do. We have our advantages but limitations too. Our current
> > bank
> > > balance [2] is not more than a night's tariff at a decent hotel. The
> > board
> > > members does the clerical work of receiving membership applications to
> > > posting individual snail mail letters of acceptance of membership. In
> > spite
> > > of all these, we do this for the passion and love for the movement. It
> > does
> > > come at the sacrifice of our own professional/career growths or the
> > > wonderful time we would otherwise have spend with our family and
> friends.
> > > But we are proud to Wikipedians/Wikimedians! And we love what we are
> > doing.
> > >
> > > Foundation-Community-Chapter-India Trust...Yea, it is complicated and
> the
> > > model may or may not be the best.. But that is the reality. Let us all
> > work
> > > together for the movement.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Tinu Cherian
> > >
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors
> > > 2) http://wiki.wikimedia.in/images/0/06/WMIN-AnnualReport2010-11.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Anirudh Bhati <anirudhsbh at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > My personal opinion, and I only speak for myself and not the Chapter
> or
> > > the
> > > > Foundation (I wouldn't dare!).
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Lodewijk <
> lodewijk at effeietsanders.org
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > thanks a lot all for exmplaining the differences. I would be very
> > much
> > > > > interested to know more about the ''relationship'' between the
> trust
> > > and
> > > > > Wikimedia India. You seem to suggest that trustees get appointed by
> > (or
> > > > on
> > > > > the advice of - not sure of the legal wording) the WMF - but will
> > > > Wikimedia
> > > > > India be involved in that too? Since they are the chapter in that
> > > > country I
> > > > > could imagine them to have a say in it.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nope.  Up until now WMIN has not received any say either with the
> India
> > > > Education Programs design and implementation or the structuring of
> the
> > > > Wikimedia India Program Trust.  And given that not many people are
> > going
> > > to
> > > > talk about it, I don't think much will change in the future.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > How closely will this trust and the chapter work together? You
> > mention
> > > > that
> > > > > there is communication etc - but is cooperation likely to become
> the
> > > > > default or the exception?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From my own experience and from what I have heard from a fellow Pune
> > > > community member, the general community and the Chapter body have
> been
> > > > excluded and ignored by WMF consultants from the very beginning.  In
> > > fact,
> > > > the Chapter representatives were only invited to attend meetings when
> > > Frank
> > > > Schlenburg and Annie Lin were in town.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And how will it work with regards of who will be the primary point
> of
> > > > > contact in India for institutions who want to partner with
> Wikimedia?
> > > > Will
> > > > > they have to approach one of the two or whichever they like (and if
> > > they
> > > > > dont get the answer they like, can they just approach the other?).
> > Will
> > > > the
> > > > > chapter and the trust be competing with each other or
> collaborating?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think there is already a lot of confusion with regard to the two
> > > entities
> > > > operating out of India.  Going by the media, news reporters are
> already
> > > > very confused by the existence of two Wikimedia bodies and I
> personally
> > > get
> > > > a lot of queries every week asking me to clarify on the location of
> > > > Wikimedia offices.  With its paid consultants, the local WMF
> > consultants
> > > > have done a good job of making their presence felt (especially in
> > Western
> > > > India), and more and more journalists are interested in hearing from
> > WMF
> > > > (the "international organization") than WMIN.
> > > >
> > > > The initial idea, if I understood it correctly, was to establish
> > another
> > > > non-profit body within India, for a period of three to five years to
> > > > execute specific (and large-scale) programmes.  As of now, the WIPT
> > > > (Wikimedia India Program Office) can pretty much do anything it wants
> > > with
> > > > the Wikimedia brand - partner with institutions, raise money locally,
> > > have
> > > > paid employees and bypass community.  This is what I foresee
> happening:
> > > >  WMIN will be involved in community-building and small-scale projects
> > > which
> > > > support volunteers and the WIPT will partner with large institutions
> in
> > > > India (who are understandably looking to club with international
> > > > organizations), get a lot of media coverage and acquire the big
> grants
> > > > (since WMIN is not a professional body).  WMIN and WIPT will
> > > theoretically
> > > > compete for funding within India, much of which will be allocated to
> > > WIPT,
> > > > given that it is professionalized (and because we never had a chance)
> > and
> > > > in WMF's good graces.  This is how WMIN has been made redundant
> > > (something
> > > > that I have been saying for a long, long time).
> > > >
> > > > The most important difference, something many are uncomfortable
> talking
> > > > about, is in the distribution of money.  The WIPT in India will have
> > > access
> > > > to *significantly *more WMF funding than WMIN (significant meaning
> > *real
> > > > significant*).  Around the time when discussions about the India
> Office
> > > > began, Barry came to India and assured us that the WIPT will only be
> > here
> > > > for a period of 3-5 years.  I am hopeful that the Foundation will
> stick
> > > to
> > > > its words, and with time we will all learn that small
> volunteer-driven
> > > > projects have a larger impact than costly, ill-designed, large-scale
> > > > programmes run by hired consultants who hire consultants with no
> > relevant
> > > > background (with a couple of exceptions).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for helping me seeing the situation more clearly,
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > No, thank you for asking the right questions.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Lodewijk
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > anirudh
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > > >
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