[Foundation-l] Seeking clarification

Chad innocentkiller at gmail.com
Tue Jan 22 17:01:57 UTC 2008 

[snip]
On Jan 22, 2008 9:39 AM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> The notion that one project should not and can not compete
> with another is false anyway. Both Wikipedia and Wikinews do news.
[/snip]

I don't think the relationship between Wikipedia and Wikinews on the topic of
news coverage is exactly a fair example of "competition." Let's take a random
subject: 2008 Riots in XYZ country. We'd expect both Wikinews and Wikipedia
to cover this topic; however, from two different angles.

Wikipedia should cover the overall encyclopedic topic (ie: the event, what lead
up to it, causes, effects, background information, additional information etc).
This being said, Wikinews should be covering it from a /news/ perspective.
What's going on, how does it affect you, what are people saying about it, etc.
This isn't competition, but rather two different coverages of the same
topic from
two different perspective.

I think the issues being raised about the similarities between Wikiversity and
WikiEducator (and I thank those who gave further information, it was very
enlightening). The semantics of mentioning students in their target
vision aside,
I believe the projects are two very closely aligned, and can benefit
greatly from
quite a bit of inter-wiki cooperation. However, I still wonder why
we'd be supporting
WikiEducator publicly without seeming to give Wikiversity much help at all (it
always, along with WikiSpecies, seemed like the red-headed-stepchild of the
Foundation's projects from my perspective).

Always,
Chad

On Jan 22, 2008 9:39 AM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> It is exactly because Wikiversity does target students that makes
> Wikieducator different.
>
> What Wikieducator is about:
>     * planning of education projects linked with the development of free
> content;
>     * development of free content on Wikieducator for e-learning;
>     * work on building open education resources (OERs) on how to create
> OERs.
>     * networking on funding proposals developed as free content.*
> *So my argument is good.
>
> All WMF projects aim to provide information. They all do it in a slightly
> different way. The notion that one project should not and can not compete
> with another is false anyway. Both Wikipedia and Wikinews do news. Both
> Wikibooks and Wikiversity work on educational material Of relevance is the
> difference in emphasis. This is what makes projects valid in their own
> right.
>
> With the notion that projects cannot compete, you effectively convict
> projects to stay in the same mold. When there are two groups with markedly
> different insights, one of these has to give up their ideas and would not be
> allowed to experiment with their notions of how things should be / can be
> done. This is evil.
>
> In my opinion, there should be room for experiments and if we find that a
> new kid on the block does good. More power to him/her. The beneficiary of
> such experiments are the people that matter; the people we are providing
> information to.
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
>
> On Jan 22, 2008 12:27 PM, Jason Safoutin <jason.safoutin at wikinewsie.org>
>
> wrote:
>
> > Correct me if I am wrong. But does the front page of Wikiversity say
> > that the project i for teachers students and researchers? If so, then
> > your argument is false.
> >
> > No WMF project should, EVER, compete with one another. If we do, we may
> > as well take the collaborative scheme, and throw it out of the window too.
> >
> > This "competition" goes against the WMF's mission.
> >
> > Jason Safoutin (DragonFire1024)
> > >
> > > Message: 6
> > > Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:36:15 +0100
> > > From: "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Seeking clarification
> > > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> > >       <foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > Message-ID:
> > >       <41a006820801212236v70332058qdf7cf18df083a835 at mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > >
> > > Hoi,
> > > In principle I would agree that the WMF could build all kinds of
> > everything.
> > > In practice the WMF has not been able to implement a project like Single
> > > User Login in almost two year now I think it is. Practically it is
> > either a
> > > really dedicated and/or talented person that gets something organised or
> > it
> > > just does not happen.
> > >
> > > Also in the Open Source world it is a given that competing projects
> > > invigorate each other because of their perceived competition. This may
> > seem
> > > rather Darwinistic but hey it seems to work for them so why not for us ?
> > The
> > > approach taken by Wikiversity and Wikieducator is markedly different.
> > > Wikieducator is very much organised for and by people who are working in
> > the
> > > educational field while Wikiversity is not. These projects occupy
> > different
> > > niches, and therefore there is not so much competition after all.
> > > Thanks,
> > >    GerardM
> > >
> > > On Jan 22, 2008 6:42 AM, Jason Safoutin <jason.safoutin at wikinewsie.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> Why should Wikiversity or Wikispecies or any other WMF project have to
> > >> compete with another WMF project, with basically the same goals?
> > >>
> > >> I am all for free collaborative content, but not if it means WMF
> > >> projects have to compete against one another. Would that not defy the
> > >> meaning of collaborative? Why not take what WMF has already and make it
> > >> better. We know they have the capabilities to make new things like a
> > >> collaborative video program...so why not?
> > >>
> > >> Point is the projects are all supposed to be part of a community of
> > >> collaborators. We are supposed to be part of a foundation that supports
> > >> that. Not driving the communities apart.
> > >>
> > >> Jason Safoutin
> > >>
> > >>> I understood Erik was asked to join their advisory board since he was
> > >>> a Board of Trustees at WMF and both organizations were largely in a
> > >>> same mind (free content for educational purpose). I think Erik said
> > >>> something at the announcement of his appointment to Deputy ED  but not
> > >>> dig the archive right now (the network is a bit slow for me now).
> > >>>
> > >>> Btw I have no reason for making a panic -- sorry but it was my first
> > >>> impression in this thread, so sorry if I just misunderstood your
> > >>> reaction --- even if WikiEducator was a competitor of Wikiversity. Is
> > >>> our world so small not as to allow two or more online educational
> > >>> projects mainly for adult or in an advanced level? In real life we
> > >>> have several high educational institutions. In several layers they
> > >>> compete each others but still there are also collaborations in many
> > >>> levels: both officially and informally they share lectures, books and
> > >>> other educational resources and do research jointly etc. Can it be
> > >>> this case or is there no such room for online projects at all?
> > >>>
> > >>> On Jan 22, 2008 10:21 AM, Nathan <nawrich at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> For a conflict of interest, interests must conflict. How do the
> > >>>> interests of Wikimedia and WikiEducator conflict? That isn't clear to
> > >>>> me. The goal is the same - the proliferation of easily accessible
> > >>>> knowledge. Ideally, they could exchange content so that neither has
> > >>>> anything the other lacks (depending on licenses, which I don't know
> > >>>> the details of).  FWIW, Erik is the deputy executive director.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Nathan
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Jan 21, 2008 8:12 PM, Jason Safoutin <
> > jason.safoutin at wikinewsie.org>
> > >>>>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>>> If I have to be the first to say it, I will. I know some of these
> > >>>>>
> > >> links
> > >>
> > >>>>> have been passed around here before, but for reference I will ad
> > them,
> > >>>>> and then some.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It has become clear to me, at least a few things anyway. One bing
> > that
> > >>>>> there is clearly a conflict of interest on Erik Moeller's part. He
> > is
> > >>>>> currently on the advisory board for Wikieducator:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     * http://www.wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Advisory_Board
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "/WikiEducator's Interim International Advisory Board was assembled
> > by
> > >>>>> project founder Wayne Mackintosh to serve as a means of involving
> > the
> > >>>>> community until the project has grown large enough to elect a Board
> > >>>>> through democratic means. Once 2,500 users have joined the wiki,
> > >>>>> elections will be held to select a successor Board./", says the
> > >>>>>
> > >> website.
> > >>
> > >>>>> Not only that, but Kultra has some involvement with Wikieducator,
> > and
> > >>>>>
> > >> if
> > >>
> > >>>>> I am not mistaken Wikieducator is slated to be on WMF servers:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     * _ Kaltura Collaborative Video Editing Extension Enabled:_
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator/browse_thread/thread/345c056f8304e25c
> > >>
> > >>>>> The way I see it, Wikieducator is the same thing that Wikiversity
> > is.
> > >>>>> Wikieducator is not to compete with Wikiversity, it is a means to
> > IMO
> > >>>>> eventually replace it. Don't believe me?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Wikieducator:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     * *planning* of education projects linked with the development
> > of
> > >>>>>       free content <http://freedomdefined.org/Definition>;
> > >>>>>     * *development* of free content on Wikieducator
> > >>>>>       <http://www.wikieducator.org/Content> for e-learning;
> > >>>>>     * work on building *open education resources* (OERs) on *how* to
> > >>>>>       create OERs.
> > >>>>>     * networking on *funding proposals
> > >>>>>       <http://www.wikieducator.org/Metawikieducator>* developed as
> > >>>>>
> > >> free
> > >>
> > >>>>>       content.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Wikiversity: /*Wikiversity* is a community for the creation of
> > >>>>>
> > >> learning
> > >>
> > >>>>> activities and development of free learning materials. Students and
> > >>>>> teachers
> > >>>>> <http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Wikiversity_teachers>
> > are
> > >>>>> invited to join the project as collaborators in teaching, learning,
> > >>>>>
> > >> and
> > >>
> > >>>>> research. Wikiversity strives to be an open and vibrant community
> > >>>>>
> > >> where
> > >>
> > >>>>> you can explore and learn about your personal interests. Wikiversity
> > >>>>> hosts and develops free learning materials for all age groups.
> > Please
> > >>>>> participate and help build collaborative learning projects and
> > >>>>> communities; at Wikiversity we learn by doing
> > >>>>> <http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Portal:Education/Wikiversity_model>,
> > >>>>>
> > >> we
> > >>
> > >>>>> learn by editing./
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> So...what is different about the two? Nothing...other than a few
> > more
> > >>>>> bells and whistles.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> We all heard about the wonderful amazing and quite eye catiching,
> > The
> > >>>>> Encyclopedia Of Life - A collaborative encyclopedia to contain the
> > >>>>> entire earth's species....I thought that's what Wikispecies is? Not
> > to
> > >>>>> mention that Erik is on their Institutional Council, which he also
> > >>>>> represents the Wikimedia Foundation. Again not another competition,
> > >>>>>
> > >> but
> > >>
> > >>>>> if you have been to their website, you will see what I mean about
> > >>>>> "replacement".
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     * http://www.eol.org/home.html
> > >>>>>     * http://blog.valuewiki.com/2007/05/09/encyclopedia-of-life/
> > >>>>>     * http://www.eol.org/partners.html#p3
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> So let cut to the chase. What is going on in WMF? Why is the
> > Executive
> > >>>>> Director involved with projects that are clearly designed to either
> > >>>>> replace or out do WMF projects? Why is the WMF involved at all? And
> > >>>>>
> > >> why,
> > >>
> > >>>>> is the Board of Trustees, the group the communities elected, not
> > >>>>>
> > >> saying
> > >>
> > >>>>> anything? Whats going on and who is making these decisions?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> In all respects, we have to right to know at least some things. As
> > it
> > >>>>> stands, Kaltura is directly endorsing the WMF on its front page:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> http://www.kaltura.com/devwiki/index.php/Main_Page
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "/As recently announced
> > >>>>> <
> > >>>>>
> > >>
> > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Invites_Users_to_Take_Part_in_Open%2C_Collaborative_Video_Experiment
> > >>
> > >>> ,
> > >>>
> > >>>>> the Wikimedia Foundation and Kaltura have begun a process aimed at
> > >>>>> bringing rich-media collaboration to Wikipedia and other wiki
> > >>>>>
> > >> websites.
> > >>
> > >>>>> The vision of this project is to enable the Wikipedia community to
> > >>>>> further enhance and enrich Wikipedia articles with rich-media
> > >>>>>
> > >> content./"
> > >>
> > >>>>> They mention Wikipedia three times in just the first paragraph...
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> So who is in charge now????????????
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Jason Safoutin
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> foundation-l mailing list
> > >>>>> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > >>>>> Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
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