[Foundation-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen, in Alexandria, Egypt

[Waerth]

Some answers .....
> Well I am going to put my two cents in because I have read just about 
> enough.
>
> Here is why I am entirely opposed to Wikimania being in Egypt.
>
> 1) Since the announcement of this, the LGBT wikimedians have expressed 
> grave concern. As mentioned previously, this is a regime in which 
> "opresses" homosexuals and imprisons them. Me being gay, I am not sure I 
> would want to risk that. Not to mention my partner, if I had one and he 
> came, but yet the WMF states that they picked Egypt because of its 
> "geo-diversity 
> <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimania-l/2007-October/000719.html>."
>   
As argued by other people, many gays go there on holiday quite safely 
and Egyot even seems to feature in gay magazines as a travel 
destination. One would think they have done their research. Offcourse 
there is always a risk if people go on and try to date local gays. How 
many years ago did George Michale get busted for this in the United 
States? There are many many more countries in the world where a gay 
person is at risk. Even in very gay friendly Thailand you could walk 
into the wrong people. It is very simple, do not flaunt and do not go on 
provoking because you feel you have to re-educate your hostcountry and 
nothing will happen to you becuase really the authorities have many 
better things to do than go after you. Unless you provoke them 
offcourse. Apart from that on some "monger" messageboards more and more 
posts are made about the "scene" in Egypt. Seems that as long as you do 
not go out yelling what you are looking for it is all possible in Egypt.

> 2) Human rights and "free" speech (free being the key word). Why hold a 
> conference of a foundation that is based entirely on FREE media when 
> that country and the government don't even support free speech? Why in 
> an country that limits the rights of women and humans in general? What 
> is so "free" about that?
>   
There are many many countries where there is no such a thing. Many 
countries in Europe and North America put laws into existance that limit 
the rights of their citizens and make them jump through all kinds of 
hoops. Also these countries limit the freedom of travel to their 
countries from many parts of the world. The so-called free press is 
usually nothing more but sensationalist (see the blownup story about 
Madeleine, there is thousands of lost kids out there) and in the hands 
of big corporations and are only writing stories that further their 
shareholders agendas and profits. Even media outlets like the BBC seem 
to make more and more mistakes in their reporting (I noticed this in 
their recent Thailand stories). Furthermore these are western values. 
And although I am in favour of them in general, I feel there is to much 
preaching done on this issue.

> 3) Egypt is in too close proximity to several areas which are in a near 
> constant war: Israel and Palestine, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and 
> Afghanistan...not to mention holding this is the Middle East puts (for 
> the most part) Americans at risk and the rest at risk for a prime target 
> of violence or an attack. Was safety considered when making this decision
>   
Violent demonstrations in Paris, Bombings in London and Spain. All of 
the Western Countries who have send troops to Iraq and Afghanistan are 
potentially at risk. Now look at the gulfstates, like United Arab 
Emirates, Qatar and the like. They are even closer to all of these kind 
countries. Yet all the millionaires of the world seem to have no problem 
in going there and buying houses there. Many Europeans go on holiday 
along the Red Sea coast quite safely. Also Israelis go there even though 
they used to be enemies. If this is your criteria for visiting countries 
you can go nowhere. And you are even supporting terrorists as you are 
letting yourself being terrorized by them. Have you ever wondered how 
terrorists could terrorize us if we told them ....... f*** you, you can 
bomb us shoot us, kidnap us but you cannot stop us from going anywhere 
we want to go they would loose their scare-weapon pretty quicklu. And 
apart from that most people do not really care whether you are American 
or not. It is just a few fanatics who care about that. And they are 
everywhere in the world. Many people care about the actions by the 
American government but do not hold it against individuals.
> 4) Who are these people on the "jury"? I mean I know their names, but 
> who are they. Are they wealthy? Travel the world frequently? Seems like 
> it because in my opinion this place was picked because it was somewhere 
> they decided it would be nice to visit. More than half of all 
> wikimedians will likely NOT be able to afford the trip, in some cases 
> from literally on the other side of the globe. Might as well rob a bank 
> for the finances.
>   
This is a very bad argument. On most wikimania's the goal is not to have 
half of all wikimedians attending. By the same argument they could have 
choosen Cape Town btw so it does not fly really. It has always been the 
case that more than half of the wikimedians would not have been able to 
afford the trip. If I base my opinion on the Dutch wikipedia 
participation more than half is under 18 anyway. Even if they had the 
money would their parents allow them to travel somewhere? There will 
always be cases where people have to travel from the other side of the 
globe. Now there are many Wikimedians in Europe. Travelling to Egypt 
wouldn't cost that much for them if judged by Egypt's popularity as a 
holiday destination already! And please do not rob a bank ;)
> 5) The "jury" was composed of, from what I see, 12 individuals who in 
> some way or another "work" for WMF (and that does NOT necessarily mean 
> getting paid). I see IMO a conflict of interest. The other 2 seem to be 
> just contributers, which is what most of this jury should have been 
> composed of. After all this is a conference for all Wikis.
>   
Why is this? Now you should make sure that that sure isn't only composed 
of wikipedians from rich countries! Which it will likely end up being if 
we go your way. Their will be 5 europeans, 5 north americans and a token 
African and a token Asian.

> I am NOT against ever having a Wikimania in the Middle East or 
> eventually in Egypt. But right now, it's not the right time. We need to 
> think about how diverse our contributers are and base a decision off 
> that. In my opinion there are a lot better, safer and more 
> "geo-diversed" places than somewhere where there is a potential for 
> people to be injured or killed or go broke just getting there.
There will always be people who cannot afford to go somewhere. Now if 
people go broke to go towikimania that says something about them, not 
the location. Also there will always be a potential for people getting 
killed. Say we had a wikimania in Paris during the violence? Or one in 
London when they are bombing? Or in New York and some wikimedians wander 
into Harlem ...... Or the plane crashes that people use to go to a 
wikimania. Unless there is an excessive risk, which I feel is not there 
in Egypt, there is no reason not to have a wikimania there. So Bogota 
please put your bid in.

But then again after all this I might be the wrong person to weigh in on 
this. I would even go on a holiday to Afghanistan right now if I would 
have the money

Waerth



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