<div dir="ltr">Dear Jens,<div><br></div><div>I'm afraid your contributions do come across as angry and personal. It is OK to have those emotions, but I don't think they are quite constructive to the discussion. Calling someone's opinion 'bullshit' and agressively stating that 'an honest debate is not possible' (paraphrased) simply because someone gives their opinion in answer to a public question seems uncalled for to me. </div>
<div><br></div><div>I will not go into your analyses of emails - I agree with Dimi that that is poisonous to the actual topic, but I do have a very practical request: please don't use quotation marks when you're paraphrasing. It is confusing.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Several of the statements you qualified as obvious or clear, are very non-obvious to me. Maybe you're better placed in this discussion than I am, maybe I don't quite get the gist of the discussions. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Stating that someone should apologize for their opinion is in my book by the way not the best way to a decent debate. As for stopping all activities of Wikipedia Zero, I happily refer you to the page "Wikipedia:The wrong version" which probably has a German equivalent. </div>
<div><br></div><div>I sincerely hope we can have a more focused discussion on the topic rather than everything surrounding it. Dimi's suggestions seem interesting and require at least on my side further thought. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Lodewijk</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2014-08-12 17:07 GMT+02:00 Jens Best <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jens.best@wikimedia.de" target="_blank">jens.best@wikimedia.de</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Hi Dimi,<br></div><div><br>There is now "strawman argument" and even more no "ad-hominem attack" from my side. Please stop these allegations.<br>
<br></div>There was in fact a person of the board of the foundation giving us a rare insight on what the foundation really thinks:<br>
<br></div>"We are a human right, Wikipedia is a human right - therefore we do not have to stick to stupid rules made up for this so-called open web."<br><br></div><div>and<br><br></div><div>"If these net neutrality thing is against Us, the Bringer of the Holy Human Right named Wikipedia, than these net neutrality people are on the wrong side - on the side which stands against human rights."<br>
<br></div><div>Well, if you ask me, and obviously many others, "assuming good faith" becomes pretty stupid, when spit in the face like this.<br><br><br></div><div>So if "productive and friendly" means don't mention the clear bullsh** said publicly by a representative of the foundation, there will be no "productive and friendly" bowing to this sick attitude which covers up ignorance with pseudo-debates while doing anyway what they want. <br>
<br></div><div>Net neutrality is bigger than Wikipedia. As long as Wikimedia is ignoring this simple fact and continuing selling Wikipedia Zero to providers around the world there can be no honest debate which even has a whiff of credibility. <br>
<br><br></div><div>So back to the preconditions of a decent debate: Apology for the insult happened at Wikimania & Stopping all efforts pushing WP0 as long there is no decision reached in this very very sensible global matter. <br>
<br></div><div>best regards<br><br></div><div>Jens<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2014-08-12 15:12 GMT+02:00 Dimitar Parvanov Dimitrov <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dimitar.parvanov.dimitrov@gmail.com" target="_blank">dimitar.parvanov.dimitrov@gmail.com</a>></span>:<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>Dear Jens,<br><br>Please keep in mind the following things are also pre-conditions for having an open debate:<br>
<br></div>Assuming good faith<br></div>No ad-hominem attacks<br></div>
No strawman arguments (misrepresenting someone's argument to make it easier to attack)<br>
<br></div>Thank you for helping to keep this list productive and friendly! <br><br></div>Dimi<br><div><div><br><br><div><br><br></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2014-08-12 14:53 GMT+02:00 Jens Best <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jens.best@wikimedia.de" target="_blank">jens.best@wikimedia.de</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>Hi Dimi, Hi Lili, Hi Yana, Hi all,<br><br>
</div>Dimi, thanks for listing some factual thoughts on the subject. But there are times for factual debate and there are times to get some things straight first to make a factual debate possible to start.<br>
<br></div>What has to be made straight first:<br><br></div>- The foundation has to issue an letter of excuse for this incomprehensible assault of Patricio against net neutrality activists. Practically calling them enemies of human rights is unacceptable and destroys any common ground to discuss further on.<br>
<br></div>- As insulting as the statement of Patricio was, it gave us a glimpse to see the real face of the foundation. It became clear that all this is right now a fake-debate. <br><br>The foundation isn't willing to have this debate as open outcoming as it should be - this means be willing to stop WP0 because it is a clear violation of net neutrality. Patricio's statement made it clear what ways the foundation is willing to "argue" for keeping their marketing campaign called Wikipedia Zero running.<br>
</div><br>Therefore does a debate about that subject makes NO sense as long there is now a clear signal of the foundation that they take the discussion seriously. Words are not enough anymore - all efforts pushing Wikipedia Zero forward and violating net neutrality even more and wider must verifiable stop before any statement/proposal of part of the foundation can be taken seriously.<br>
<br><br></div>As long these two reasonable preconditions are not met, any talk about taking net neutrality seriously AND finding a way to share Wikimedia's part of the Free Knowldege of the world to more people is senseless.<br>
<br></div>best regards<span><font color="#888888"><br><br></font></span></div><span><font color="#888888">Jens<br></font></span></div>
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