<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hi Yana,<br><br></div>I know this is a tricky issue and we really appreciate you sharing this and we know discussing advocacy positions in public isn't always an easy thing to do. <br>
<br></div>As you might now we have the Big Fat Brussels Meeting Vol. 2 [1] these days and we took some time to talk about it. <br><br></div>While we all love Wikipedia Zero and we sure want to protect it, we feel like the proposed op-ed might not explain the unique nature of Wikipedia and Free Knowledge as well as it could. Futhermore, we're worried it might invite simplified interpretations of our position that do not reflect our vision, mission and goals.<br>
<br>I tried to summarise some of the arguments we discussed today and here's the best digest I can give you at this point:<br><br><ul><li>Given the current active net neutrality debate in Europe, the US and Brazil the moment is really sensitive. This means that us publishing something will be preceived as advocacy and use by friends and foes alike. <br>
</li><li>The "non-commercial" element of our position is not specified. What do we mean by it? Commercial services can be used non-commercially and vice-versa. We allow everyone to use our content commercially. That is what makes us special. Arguing "non-commercial" here can be very confusing. <br>
</li><li>If Encarta Encyclopedia had done such deals before Wikipedia existed we might have never had a chance to succeed the way we did. Isn't there a risk of monopolising knowledge here? There is a reason we chose to provide data dumps that everyone can use to fork. <br>
</li><li><span class="">The tone of the statment is almost
like saying: "We believe in net neutrality but we don't think it should
apply to Wikimedia projects".</span></li></ul><p>It might be wise to think harder about what makes us different from everyone else on the open internet and concentrate on that. <br></p><p>Again, thanks for engaging in this discussion on this list!</p>
<p>Greeting from (unusually dry) Brussels, [2]<br></p><p>Dimi<br></p><p></p></div><div><div><br>[1]<a href="https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/BrusselsMeeting201404">https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/BrusselsMeeting201404</a><br>
[2]<a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Big_Fat_Brussels_Meeting_April_2014.jpg">https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Big_Fat_Brussels_Meeting_April_2014.jpg</a><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2014-04-24 1:29 GMT+02:00 Jens Best <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jens.best@wikimedia.de" target="_blank">jens.best@wikimedia.de</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><div><div>Hi Yana,<br><br><br></div>I'm too don't think that a line of limitation could be drawn i.e. at video-based non-commercial material. But this is the exact problem of your actual argumentation. By mentioning a few health apps it's not really becoming clear that the true challenge of possibly bringing Wikipedia Zero and net neutrality into an however argumented alliance lies in a more complex and yet to be started discussion which would go far beyond the edges of the Wikimedia Movement.<br>
<br>In the acknowledgement of the fact, that Wikipedia Zero is a crack in the principle of net neutrality as long as there is no discussion about totally excluding ALL non-commercial "good cause" content and make it zero-rated. Right now, to make this clear, Wikipedia Zero, apart all its good intentions, stays a questionable violation of the net neutrality principles. <br>
<br></div><div>When Wikipedia Zero and some surely helpful health apps are excluded you opening up a wide field of possible content which should also be zero-rated by all providers. I'm sure that this discussion will create a lot of resistance and counter-arguments from many different stakeholders. Are we prepared for this? Do we have support for this new and possibly great idea of making all open content zero-rated? Who in the international open web movement and beyond could support this idea? Which would be valuable arguments against it? And which stakeholders will bring them with what intensions?<br>
<br></div><div>I'm, like you, convinced that we have to have this discussion, and that Wikipedia Zero can be a good example for leading the case. But right now I don't see much broad support for this case, so it could stay the impression that Wikimedia is trying to cleverly argue only for its own non-commercial product, Wikipedia Zero. It's an endeavour in a very sensitive field which is central to many parts of the Open Web movement. <br>
<br>I'm right now not convinced that WMF presents a well-thought strategy to start this process. Net neutrality is still under heavy attack by a variety of stakeholders around the world. It is actually right now taken out of the declaration process at NetMundial in Brazil against the will of the civil society. So, with all good faith in the great idea of bringing Free Knowledge to as many people as possible, we should be very very careful not treading on principles which assure the very basic groundwork of everything an Open and Free Web relys on.<br>
<br></div><div>Looking forward to a broader discussion on that subject.<br></div><div><br></div><div>best regards<br><br></div><div>Jens Best<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2014-04-23 7:11 GMT+02:00 Yana Welinder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ywelinder@wikimedia.org" target="_blank">ywelinder@wikimedia.org</a>></span>:<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Jens, </div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for your thoughtful email. </div><div><br></div><div>I'd love if we could respond to Marco Civil (or anything else) that quickly. :) We have been working on this for quite some time, researching the topic and consulting with net neutrality scholars to make sure that we had a nuanced position on this question. The op-ed is not so much a response to Marco Civil, as it is a response to the fact that net neutrality rules are starting to be considered by countries that are relevant to Wikipedia Zero. We have been approached by advocacy groups about how we see Wikipedia Zero in the net neutrality debate. This piece would be our response. It also seeks to clarify how Wikipedia Zero is different from various sponsored data programs, as we've heard that the project is sometimes misrepresented and used as an argument for other types of exceptions.</div>
<div><br></div><div>As to where to draw the line, I don't think we would want to limit a non-commercial exception to Wikipedia Zero and the health app. They were just presented as concrete examples of non-commercial initiatives. But I'm also not sure why we would want to draw the line at video based educational material. That is really not the kind of thing that the net neutrality principle was intended to protect against. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Thanks, </div><span><font color="#888888"><div>Yana</div></font></span><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 8:27 PM, Jens Best <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jens.best@wikimedia.de" target="_blank">jens.best@wikimedia.de</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>Hi Yana,<br><br><br></div>that was a quick response, but then again it was well expected that the Marco Civil da Internet would be passed by the Brazilian Senado Federal today.<br>
<br></div>Exceptions are often the first crack in principles which should be hold in respect. Clearly there is a conflict of interest rising on the horizon for the Free Knowledge Movement. You mention correctly that Wikipedia Zero isn't the only data which is transported zero-rated. Besides other non-commercial tools for free knowledge or different life improving aspects there are also commercial deals between providers and content producers (i.e. in Germany you get Spotify zero-rated by Deutsche Telekom when signing a special deal. A clever marketing-tricky way to destroy net neutrality). <br>
<br></div>So how can non-commercial data helping to better the world by being excluded in the future out of the very clear principles of net neutrality without creating an overly complex global discussion or even get Wikipedia misused by mobile/cloud providers as an "icebreaker" making people getting used to zero-rated "special deals"?<br>
<br>Should it be zero-rated in every country? Also in many European countries many people can't afford a proper data-tariff or even a "smart" phone. Isn't it also a shame that these people can't have free access to Free Knowledge and other non-commercial life-improving tools?<br>
<br></div>Where can we draw the line in the future? What about video-based free education? Maybe even free non-commercial education videos on youtube or another commercial video platform (or cc-licenced videos on wikiversity)?<br>
<br></div>All these and many more text-, audio- or v<font>ideo-based non-commercial tools, and I quote you on that, create "<b style="font-weight:normal"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">more<b> </b>opportunities for creative services that empower users, raise standards<b> </b>of living, and bring transparency and accountability to<b> </b>government through free delivery of information." - If we wanna stand for a well-argued point of view on that</span></b><span style="font-weight:normal"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">, it's not enough to mention some (non-commercial) health apps which surely deserves the same treatment than a Free-Knowldege-tool like Wikipedia Zero.<br>
<br></span></span></font></div><font><span style="font-weight:normal"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">To sum it up for today, we have to have some exchange of thoughts about i.e. senseful limitations of and global regulations for zero-rating non-commercial tools and what role Wikipedia Zero will play in this discussion. If Wikipedia Zero should be the spearhead for zero-rating "open internet"-related non-commercial tools which are </span></span></font><font><span style="font-weight:normal"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial"><font><span style="font-weight:normal"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">"for a good cause" then </span></span></font>there has to be more talk with the whole internet movement about this - otherwise all this could look more like a not so well-thought argumentation for keeping especially Wikipedia Zero out of the net neutrality principle. This appearance should be avoided. A community discussion about that should definitely be prior to any maybe misleading statements by the foundation.<br>
<br></span></span></font></div><div><font><span style="font-weight:normal"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">If we, to quote you again, "</span></span></font>continue to develop a position on Wikipedia Zero", of course, we will inevitably present a public advocacy position on net neutrality thereby. So let's talk about it.<br>
</div><div><font><span style="font-weight:normal"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial"><br><br></span></span></font></div><font><span style="font-weight:normal"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">best regards<br>
<br></span></span></font></div><font><span style="font-weight:normal"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">Jens Best<br><br></span></span></font><br><font><span style="font-weight:normal"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">-- <span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"></span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"></span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">
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<font><span style="font-weight:normal"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial"><br></span></span></font><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
2014-04-23 3:58 GMT+02:00 Yana Welinder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ywelinder@wikimedia.org" target="_blank">ywelinder@wikimedia.org</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><div>
<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi all, </div><div><br></div><div>Earlier today, the Senate in Brazil passed the Marco Civil bill, that has some ambiguous provisions on net neutrality. It was passed on urgent basis in anticipation of NetMundial, a meeting on internet governance that will be held in Brazil tomorrow and Thursday.</div>
<div><br></div><div>We have prepared an op-ed (see below) explaining how certain types of net neutrality laws impact Wikipedia Zero, and we will try to get it published around the closing of NetMundial. The purpose of this op-ed is to make sure that there is an accurate portrayal of Wikipedia Zero in the net neutrality debate, particularly in countries that are relevant to this project. </div>
<div><br></div><div>While we don't plan to take a direct advocacy position on net neutrality at this point, we will continue to develop a position on Wikipedia Zero. We would therefore like to hear your thoughts on this topic.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Best, </div><div>Yana</div><div><br></div><div>---</div><div><b style="font-weight:normal"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
<span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:21px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"><br></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
<span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:21px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'">Free Access to Knowledge Should Not Be a Net Neutrality Issue</span></p>
<br><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:21px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"></span><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
<span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">In recent months, lawmakers around the world have been considering net neutrality rules that aim to preserve the Internet’s original promise as an open forum. But certain provisions of net neutrality laws could threaten the free spread of information in surprising ways. In particular, such provisions could prevent non-commercial initiatives like Wikipedia Zero from providing truly free access to the online encyclopedia in the Global South. Legislators must be careful to avoid these unintended consequences. </span></p>
<br><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial"></span><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
<span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">Net neutrality advocates are right to be concerned that forcing users to pay for faster data delivery could easily push small and non-commercial publishers and content creators out of the market. Since its inception, a key tenet of the Internet has been equal treatment of data from all sources: Internet service providers must deliver content from blogs or startups with the same speed as content from major media companies or huge tech firms. Allowing Internet service providers to charge more for faster delivery of certain kinds of content would favor players with deep pockets, who could then muscle out smaller competitors. But to date the discussion has largely ignored a potential pitfall: might certain provisions of net neutrality laws unintentionally hamper the free flow of information they seek to protect?</span></p>
<br><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial"></span><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
<span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">Just consider the net neutrality law passed by the Netherlands in 2012, sometimes presented as a model for legislation elsewhere. The Dutch Telecommunications Act aims to enforce net neutrality, in part, by prohibiting ISPs from charging subscribers different rates based on the services they access, for example VoIP or instant messaging. However the Dutch law would also prohibit ISPs from providing free access to certain sites, as they would technically be charging different rates (in this case, nothing) for different services.</span></p>
<br><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial"></span><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
<span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">It’s worth noting that not all net neutrality rules include these provisions: the FCC's previous Open Internet Rules, for example, simply focused on prohibiting blocking and unreasonable discrimination against content providers. Similarly, the current version of the pending Marco Civil bill in Brazil does not prohibit paid or free Internet connection as long as ISPs do not monitor, filter, or block the content of data packets. But the Dutch law, and any laws modeled on it, might interfere with initiatives that rely on zero-rated data, like the “Wikipedia Zero” program across the Global South, which essentially aims to have all carriers in a given country zero-rate Wikipedia so it can become a true public good, with unfettered access for everyone.</span></p>
<br><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial"></span><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
<span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">When carriers commit to waiving data fees, Wikipedia Zero can provide schoolchildren with a virtual encyclopedia in places where they don’t have access to books or libraries, spread practical knowledge about agriculture, sanitation, and wellness, and deliver outside information to people living under repressive regimes. Eventually Wikipedia Zero will extend to free editing of entries as well, empowering users in developing countries with a platform for free speech.</span></p>
<br><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial"></span><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
<span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">Wikipedia Zero isn’t the only free service that could suffer from specific provisions of some net neutrality laws. The Refugees United mobile app allows victims of political upheavals and natural disasters to find lost family members and friends free of cost, also relying on zero-rated data. And Mobilium Africa’s Smart Health app, launched in September 2013, aims to educate Android users in Africa about HIV, tuberculosis, and malaria, including prevention, symptoms, and treatment, for free.</span></p>
<br><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial"></span><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
<span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">These initiatives are just the beginning: as the cost of mobile handsets falls and mobile penetration rises across the developing world, there will be even more opportunities for creative services that empower users, raise standards of living, and bring transparency and accountability to government through free delivery of information. Yet all these current and future initiatives could be undone by a few lines of legislation – inadvertently thwarting free access to information in the name of the free Internet.</span></p>
<br><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial"></span><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
<span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial">Net neutrality is undoubtedly a major concern. As lawmakers craft new rules they must take care not to unintentionally hinder the very cause they are trying to advance. Net neutrality rules should focus on enshrining the “end-to-end” principle, which states that Internet service providers do not distinguish between data flowing over the network based on its application or content. Net neutrality rules should not prevent the zero-rating of non-commercial initiatives, like Wikipedia Zero, that do not pay for any preferential treatment and do not interfere with the open Internet.</span></p>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;font-family:Arial"><br></span></div></font></span></b></div><span><font color="#888888"><div><br></div>-- <br>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline">Yana Welinder</span><div>
<span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline">Legal Counsel<br>Wikimedia Foundation<br><a href="tel:415.839.6885" value="+14158396885" target="_blank">415.839.6885</a> ext. </span><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-size:15px;background-color:transparent">6867</span><br>
<br>NOTICE: </span><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-style:italic;vertical-align:baseline">For legal reasons, I may only serve as a lawyer for the Wikimedia Foundation. This means I may not give legal advice to, or serve as a lawyer for, community members, volunteers, or staff members in their personal</span><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;vertical-align:baseline"> </span><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;font-style:italic;vertical-align:baseline">capacity.</span></div>
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<br></blockquote></div></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">--</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Jens Best</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">
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<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">web: </span><a href="http://www.wikimedia.de/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif" target="_blank">http://www.wikimedia.de</a><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">mail: <a href="http://goog_17221883" target="_blank">jens.best</a></span><font color="#1155cc" face="arial, sans-serif"><span style><a href="http://@wikimedia.de" target="_blank">@wikimedia.de</a></span></font><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<br><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.</span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">V. </span><div>
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Steuernummer </span><a value="+12768151985" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">27/681/51985</a><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">.</span></div>
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