<div dir="ltr">Can we stick to advocacy issues on this list please?<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 29 November 2013 12:01, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:advocacy_advisors-request@lists.wikimedia.org" target="_blank">advocacy_advisors-request@lists.wikimedia.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Which would help volunteer editors more? (Amgine)<br>
2. Re: Which would help volunteer editors more? (James Salsman)<br>
3. Re: Which would help volunteer editors more? (Raul Veede)<br>
4. Re: Which would help volunteer editors more? (James Salsman)<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 15:09:40 +0100<br>
From: Amgine <<a href="mailto:amgine@wikimedians.ca">amgine@wikimedians.ca</a>><br>
To: Advocacy Advisory Group for Wikimedia<br>
<<a href="mailto:advocacy_advisors@lists.wikimedia.org">advocacy_advisors@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Advocacy Advisors] Which would help volunteer editors<br>
more?<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:52974EA4.1060203@wikimedians.ca">52974EA4.1060203@wikimedians.ca</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
<br>
On 27/11/13 02:24 PM, James Salsman wrote:<br>
> The idea that the economic and physiological health of the editor<br>
> pool isn't a large determinant of the proportion choosing to edit,<br>
> if not the largest that we may have any meaningful control over<br>
> after everything we've tried so far, simply does not seem<br>
> defensible. What does it mean to empower a potential editor with<br>
> the ability to share knowledge, if their circumstances leave them<br>
> without the inclination to do so? That is the difference between<br>
> empowering and merely enabling, is it not? A slightly more complete<br>
> encyclopedia with society crumbling around it is not an improvement<br>
> over a less complete encyclopedia in symbiosis with a flourishing<br>
> society.<br>
<br>
<br>
Two points of disagreement:<br>
* "that we may have any meaningful control over"<br>
* "does not seem defensible"<br>
<br>
I do not believe we have meaningful control over either the economic<br>
or the physiological health of the editor pool. We do note even have<br>
significant relevance to either hugely divergent measure.<br>
<br>
Therefore it *is* completely defensible.<br>
<br>
Until you can support your statements with objective, repeatable,<br>
observations you should probably avoid castigating others for what is<br>
your beliefs or moral codes. It tends to make people less aligned with<br>
your goals because of their opposition to your methods.<br>
<br>
Amgine<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 04:23:44 +0800<br>
From: James Salsman <<a href="mailto:jsalsman@gmail.com">jsalsman@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Advocacy Advisory Group for WMF LCA<br>
<<a href="mailto:advocacy_advisors@lists.wikimedia.org">advocacy_advisors@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Advocacy Advisors] Which would help volunteer editors<br>
more?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAD4=uZYT8zS9xZGNwWQXwMNKEBi6ULcnV_B5eLuwjU=<a href="mailto:hiYFCmQ@mail.gmail.com">hiYFCmQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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On Nov 28, 2013 10:09 PM, "Amgine" <<a href="mailto:amgine@wikimedians.ca">amgine@wikimedians.ca</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I do not believe we have meaningful control over either the economic<br>
> or the physiological health of the editor pool.<br>
<br>
It has been established by example that the English Wikipedia is able to<br>
influence its readership politically to generate very large scale effective<br>
political change from calls to action. We are also a primary source of<br>
information about health for both physicians and lay people. More directly,<br>
the Foundation now makes decisions about how to compensate editors and<br>
chapters based on the merit of their proposals as submitted, directly.<br>
<br>
So, for example, if there were a banner directing people to fixmyjob.comor<br>
<a href="http://heathcare-now.org" target="_blank">heathcare-now.org</a>, there is no reason to believe it would not generate very<br>
substantial support from readers and have a large actual, and probably<br>
measurable, impact on the extent to which they are truly empowered to<br>
contribute.<br>
<br>
Ignoring political realities of the factors that influence the day to day<br>
lives of editors, potential, current, and former, is just that -- willful<br>
ignorance. When the legal team was threatened with the potential<br>
troublesome overhead of removing links due to SOPA/PIPA, the community<br>
supported action to prevent that. When are we going to take action to<br>
support the wider editor community?<br>
<br>
Pretending that political and economic factors are somehow out of the scope<br>
of the mission requires imagining that the mission statement says something<br>
about them. It does not. What is the relative impact on a potential editor<br>
who might not be able to include hyperlinks to copyrighted media because of<br>
SOPA versus one who has to work two jobs to make ends meet?<br>
<br>
Why is political neutrality on economic issues preferable to political<br>
neutrality on intellectual property law issues? The latter is a subset of<br>
the former. Acting as though one side of economic political debates is not<br>
more accurate than their opposition in the face of overwhelming evidence to<br>
the contrary is tantamount to the worst kind of "he said, she said"<br>
journalism, which in this case is not only an affront to the readers who<br>
expect occasional rational calls to action, but actively harms the rate at<br>
which the encyclopedia is improved.<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 23:14:06 +0200<br>
From: Raul Veede <<a href="mailto:raul.veede@gmail.com">raul.veede@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Advocacy Advisory Group for Wikimedia<br>
<<a href="mailto:advocacy_advisors@lists.wikimedia.org">advocacy_advisors@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Advocacy Advisors] Which would help volunteer editors<br>
more?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAG_2RZrYmZDDqVgUZZKtydZtdUW5pF_KeXZrt6vguqe4Q65MZg@mail.gmail.com">CAG_2RZrYmZDDqVgUZZKtydZtdUW5pF_KeXZrt6vguqe4Q65MZg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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"...very large scale effective political change..."<br>
<br>
Well, if you're really believing that, perhaps you would like to focus on<br>
real global problems that are also connected to the problems of the<br>
Wikimedian community like creating a reliable education system in<br>
Sub-Saharan Africa? If you insist that the greatest problem we as a global<br>
movement face is the low living standard in U.S., we should, of course,<br>
start collecting donations in Bangladesh and Botswana right away.<br>
<br>
Many members of this very mailing list are people from countries facing far<br>
worse situations than Americans (or Estonians, for that matter). Once you<br>
realize that, calls to support local Amerocentric actions don't sound very<br>
smart - even if they were relevant to this list's agenda.<br>
<br>
Raul<br>
<br>
On Thursday, November 28, 2013, James Salsman wrote:<br>
<br>
> On Nov 28, 2013 10:09 PM, "Amgine" <<a href="mailto:amgine@wikimedians.ca">amgine@wikimedians.ca</a><javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', '<a href="mailto:amgine@wikimedians.ca">amgine@wikimedians.ca</a>');>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > I do not believe we have meaningful control over either the economic<br>
> > or the physiological health of the editor pool.<br>
><br>
> It has been established by example that the English Wikipedia is able to<br>
> influence its readership politically to generate very large scale effective<br>
> political change from calls to action. We are also a primary source of<br>
> information about health for both physicians and lay people. More directly,<br>
> the Foundation now makes decisions about how to compensate editors and<br>
> chapters based on the merit of their proposals as submitted, directly.<br>
><br>
> So, for example, if there were a banner directing people to fixmyjob.comor<br>
> <a href="http://heathcare-now.org" target="_blank">heathcare-now.org</a>, there is no reason to believe it would not generate<br>
> very substantial support from readers and have a large actual, and probably<br>
> measurable, impact on the extent to which they are truly empowered to<br>
> contribute.<br>
><br>
> Ignoring political realities of the factors that influence the day to day<br>
> lives of editors, potential, current, and former, is just that -- willful<br>
> ignorance. When the legal team was threatened with the potential<br>
> troublesome overhead of removing links due to SOPA/PIPA, the community<br>
> supported action to prevent that. When are we going to take action to<br>
> support the wider editor community?<br>
><br>
> Pretending that political and economic factors are somehow out of the<br>
> scope of the mission requires imagining that the mission statement says<br>
> something about them. It does not. What is the relative impact on a<br>
> potential editor who might not be able to include hyperlinks to copyrighted<br>
> media because of SOPA versus one who has to work two jobs to make ends meet?<br>
><br>
> Why is political neutrality on economic issues preferable to political<br>
> neutrality on intellectual property law issues? The latter is a subset of<br>
> the former. Acting as though one side of economic political debates is not<br>
> more accurate than their opposition in the face of overwhelming evidence to<br>
> the contrary is tantamount to the worst kind of "he said, she said"<br>
> journalism, which in this case is not only an affront to the readers who<br>
> expect occasional rational calls to action, but actively harms the rate at<br>
> which the encyclopedia is improved.<br>
><br>
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Message: 4<br>
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 06:02:27 +0800<br>
From: James Salsman <<a href="mailto:jsalsman@gmail.com">jsalsman@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Advocacy Advisory Group for WMF LCA<br>
<<a href="mailto:advocacy_advisors@lists.wikimedia.org">advocacy_advisors@lists.wikimedia.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Advocacy Advisors] Which would help volunteer editors<br>
more?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAD4=<a href="mailto:uZa1z4dEs1ONQa-azky-%2B0cN8z_5d42A8ymsQZ0VOvu2Hw@mail.gmail.com">uZa1z4dEs1ONQa-azky-+0cN8z_5d42A8ymsQZ0VOvu2Hw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
On Nov 29, 2013 5:14 AM, "Raul Veede" <<a href="mailto:raul.veede@gmail.com">raul.veede@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>... you would like to focus on real global problems that<br>
> are also connected to the problems of the Wikimedian<br>
> community like creating a reliable education system<br>
> in Sub-Saharan Africa?<br>
<br>
That is in fact my day job. I have been unable to effect as positive change<br>
in the field in large if not largest part due to the economic and political<br>
conditions in the United States, where I used to live. Why isn't USAID<br>
doing as much for Africa as it did for the Pacific Rim? Because the<br>
diplomats have been losing out to the arms dealers internationally.<br>
If Wikimedians wanted to address that problem within the confines of not<br>
taking a stand on U.S. economic issues, we could have a drive to translate<br>
instructions for obtaining exchange student visas and invitations. I think<br>
that would be great, but much less effective than taking a principled stand<br>
on the economic issues which enable the arms dealers to operate with<br>
impunity in the largest economy where most of them are connected with to<br>
begin with.<br>
<br>
I have done plenty for education in the developing world, including<br>
improving some of the most important health care articles and preparing<br>
them for translation. If I thought the most positive overall change could<br>
be effected by doing something about the developing world, then I would say<br>
so, and I have long been on record as supporting the ratification of the<br>
Convention on the Rights of the Child and its protocols without<br>
reservation, e.g. at <a href="http://j.mp/amendmentact" target="_blank">http://j.mp/amendmentact</a><br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
James Salsman<br>
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End of Advocacy_Advisors Digest, Vol 17, Issue 7<br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><font><b style="color:rgb(0,153,0)">Jon Davies - Chief Executive Wikimedia UK</b>. Mobile (0044) 7803 505 169<br>tweet @jonatreesdavies <br><br></font><div><p style="line-height:19.2px;font-family:sans-serif;margin:0.4em 0px 0.5em">
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