It's 5 days since this reminding, a week since the slowness. We're missing the funcionality it provided. So, is there any reason blocking from restoring it? (if so, why hasn't been resolved yet? :D) There was a 'policy' of users don't needing to worry about server issues ('if there aren't enough servers, we will add more'), but here there is a collision. As any edit to the template will affect a lot of pages, i'm also reluctant of doing 'lighter' versions, as changes+reverts would probably overload even more. Who should we send versions for approval?

On 1/16/07, Jens Frank <jf(a)mormo.org> wrote: Since there is still no (real) looping constructs, all wikitext execution should still be roughly linearly proportional to input size, or am I missing something?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Platonides wrote: Jesus Christ! I can't say words without having some God-given "policy" read into them. I made a general recommendation not to go running around saying THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING about templates BASED ON SUPPOSITION AND PARANOIA. That doesn't mean that AN ACTUAL PROBLEM, WHEN DISCOVERED, SHOULD BE IGNORED. WHEN THERE IS AN ACTUAL, REAL, MEASURABLE PROBLEM, THEN IT MATTERS. IN THIS CASE THERE IS AN ACTUAL, REAL, MEASURABLE PROBLEM. UNTIL THAT GETS FIXED UP ON THE SOFTWARE END, THE PARTICULAR TEMPLATE WHICH IS AN ACTUAL, REAL, MEASURABLE PROBLEM, TAKING 10-20 SECONDS TO RENDER, MUST NOT BE WIDELY USED. Try to use some common sense, people. There's no "policy" here. Just *sense*. - -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

2007/1/16, Rob Church <robchur(a)gmail.com>om>: That guideline page has been complemented with some more quotes from this discussion. If you find that strange, maybe you should check a couple of the policy pages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus#Exceptions ): "Declarations from Jimmy Wales, the Board, or the Developers, particularly for copyright, legal issues, or server load, are usually held to have policy status (see Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines)." policies are started ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#How_are_poli…) : "Declarations from Jimmy Wales, the Board, or the Developers, particularly for copyright, legal issues, or server load." So unless the word "declaration" is defined, it actually says on two enwiki policy pages that pretty much anything you guys say on server load matters should be made into policy/guideline pages at once. It is at least very easy to interpret it that way. The guys who do not like this maybe could take some measures against it. *hint* /habj

On 28/01/07, Rob Church <robchur(a)gmail.com> wrote: I think it's a scaling issue: we've attracted a critical mass of the sort of obnoxious nerds who give aspergism a really bad name. See also the book 'Cyberselfish' by Paulina Borsook. [[WP:PRO]] on en: is an attempt at a how-to on clearing up policycruft. - d.

How about saying "there can only be X policies on the Wikipedia, where X = the number we currently have. If you want to add another one, you must first remove an existing policy, by consensus." I.e. keep them constrained within a busy loop, fighting each other's policies. For bonus points, as time progresses, you could try gradually reducing X (using a Last-In-First-Out approach), thus forcing people to condense the rules into "meta-policies" (such as "assume good faith"), rather than obsessing about petty details. And when the rules fit on the back of a Wikipedia membership card in 14-point font, then it's time to stop reducing X. :-) All the best, Nick.

For the purposes of this exercise, I was assuming something the exact same size and shape as a credit card, with a Wikipedia logo, your real name, your username, and possibly date you started using the Wikipedia, and maybe a photo, on one side; and the rules on the other. If you wanted the card to have a functional purpose (beside just as a symbol of membership), I guess you could have a smart-chip embedded in the card, which could optionally be used somehow as part of the login process, when inserted into a card reader. However, I was not thinking something like the International Driver's Permits, that's a bit of paper that folds out a number of times to become the height and width of a newspaper, with tiny legalese writing all over it! :-) All the best, Nick.

Brion Vibber escribió: I quote me: "here there is a collision" between this general guidelines and this case. Damn, if i though that it didn't matter, i would have just reverted it, or even duplicated, not asking for the opinion of THOSE WHO KNOW. Of course, this is what we want: it being solved :D Brion... ...and JeLuF "As every programmer, a wiki template programmer has to take care of the efficiency of his code." I refered to this before. How is the efficiency of the templates measured? Apart of just trying it and waiting to see if servers go down :P Diclaimer: I didn't code it, i didn't even watched its source until today. I don't say it to be a good style. It isn't easy to completely understand. I have even found what seems to be bugs. So don't eat me! I know there's a problem. What is being done about it? What can we do to help with it? How do we do it?

Brion Vibber wrote: Now we are confused, running in circles crashing into each other and taking decisions based on suppositions, because... ...what we want to know is very simple: a) are you going to change mediawiki so it works, or b) should we forget it and make a new one (and in that case, do you know what construction exactly should be avoided, or should we guess and try at Special:Expandtemplate), or c) you don't yet know? d) [other option I didn't think about] And people are already implementing different solutions that they think are best, multiplying different templates, while others are waiting for that template to be functional again, and lots of articles meanwhile lose their interproject links... *because nobody knows what to expect*. So... could any of you please give us some information about this specific problem, so people at eswiki can make an informed decision? 'Policy' was between quotes and Platonides is not a native speaker. Probably he meant something like 'rule' (probably not, but I understood it that way), and he explicitly said that it doesn't apply here. es:WP:PBF :-P Greetings. --

Brion Vibber wrote: Thanks! :) --

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 David Gerard wrote: *cries* :) - -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

2007/1/22, Nick Jenkins <nickpj(a)gmail.com>om>: I may agree with your basic idea, but certainly not with the way you try to implement it. The opposite of "Don't be dense" that you should compare with is not "Try to be completely stupid" but "Feel free to be however stupid you want." And I could imagine there ARE people supporting that, although they will not be a large group. -- Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels

Nick Jenkins wrote: <snip> That's a perfectly normal behaviour! :-P -- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 04:16:02PM +0000, Rob Church wrote: ROTFL. Really. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra(a)baylink.com Designer Baylink RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates The Things I Think '87 e24 St Petersburg FL USA http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274

On 18/01/07, Domas Mituzas &lt;midom.lists(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: :D Rob Church