Bot flags and human-made edits

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Dan Garry

19 May 2014 19 May '14

11:09 p.m.

Hi everyone, I'm trying to figure out the reason behind some decisions that were made in the past about bot flags to see if we can have a more optimal and clear setup. Presently, giving an account the bot flag does two things: 1. When editing via the API, allows the user to choose whether or not to flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter. 2. When editing via the standard editing interface, flags all edits (i.e. all human made edits) as bot edits. If you've not got the bot flag, the API will ignore you if you try to flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter. So I've got a few questions to help me figure this out. 1. What's the user story for including the edit-level granularity for bot accounts in the API? 2. What's the user story for making it so that every edit made by a human on a bot account is flagged as bot edit? Thanks, Dan -- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager for Platform and Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation

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John

19 May 19 May

11:13 p.m.

Actually there are a few cases in the non API where bots can assert not being a bot, and there are some cases where non-bots can flag as bots for specific cases (I know it in the past it was used to suppress RC floods of mass vandalism reverts by admins) so your picture isnt complete On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Dan Garry <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

Dan Garry

11:33 p.m.

Can you help me out and tell me what those cases are? I've been editing for nine years and not stumbled upon them, so I'm very curious. Thanks, Dan On 19 May 2014 19:13, John <phoenixoverride(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi everyone, I'm trying to figure out the reason behind some decisions that were made

the past about bot flags to see if we can have a more optimal and clear setup. Presently, giving an account the bot flag does two things: 1. When editing via the API, allows the user to choose whether or not

flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter. 2. When editing via the standard editing interface, flags all edits (i.e. all human made edits) as bot edits. If you've not got the bot flag, the API will ignore you if you try to

flag

an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter. So I've got a few questions to help me figure this out. 1. What's the user story for including the edit-level granularity for bot accounts in the API? 2. What's the user story for making it so that every edit made by a human on a bot account is flagged as bot edit? Thanks, Dan -- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager for Platform and Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager for Platform and Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation

Dan Garry

11:34 p.m.

Sorry, I mean, can you tell me specifically how that's done? I don't know that. Thanks, Dan On 19 May 2014 19:33, Dan Garry <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

Hi everyone, I'm trying to figure out the reason behind some decisions that were

made in

not to

flag

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-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager for Platform and Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation

Gergo Tisza

11:51 p.m.

On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Dan Garry <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

Can you help me out and tell me what those cases are? I've been editing for nine years and not stumbled upon them, so I'm very curious.

Dan Garry

20 May 20 May

1:36 a.m.

Admins have the ability to mark their rollbacks as bot edits? Wow, that's fascinating. Talk about edge cases. Thanks Gergő! Dan On 19 May 2014 19:51, Gergo Tisza <gtisza(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Dan Garry <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

Can you help me out and tell me what those cases are? I've been editing

for

nine years and not stumbled upon them, so I'm very curious.

If you are a sysop, you can either add bot=1 to a rollback URL by hand (unlike most other state-changing actions, rollbacks are done via GET requests so you can do them with a single click), or go to a user's contribution list and add bot=1 to that URL (which will in turn add it to every rollback URL on the page). The related userright is markbotedits. _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager for Platform and Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation

Roan Kattouw

19 May 19 May

11:29 p.m.

On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Dan Garry <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

1. When editing via the API, allows the user to choose whether or not to flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter.

I'm responsible for this part of the mess. I don't remember why it was done this way though. I think the people that I took over the API edit code from had put this feature in and I kept it. What I think was going on is that no one could be bothered to figure out how to represent "I am a human editing using a bot account and I'd like this edit to not be bot-flagged" in the UI, so it wasn't done. But in the API it was trivial (&bot=1), so it was done. That's just my recollection of it and it's probably flawed, this was 6-7 years ago. Roan

Amir Ladsgroup

11:36 p.m.

As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is necessary but I think the best solution would be having something like "flag=1" (optional) and this causes bot edits to be marked as human and for admin (+flooders) edits marked as bot. Implementing the parameter (whether the current status quo or my suggestion) in UI is important, I think adding a mark box besides minor and watch options would be great (for bots, admins and flooders) Best On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:59 AM, Roan Kattouw <roan.kattouw(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

...

On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Dan Garry <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

1. When editing via the API, allows the user to choose whether or not

flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter.

-- Amir

Dan Garry

20 May 20 May

1:39 a.m.

On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is necessary

Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what you use this for, to help me understand? :-)

...

Implementing the parameter (whether the current status quo or my suggestion) in UI is important, I think adding a mark box besides minor and watch options would be great (for bots, admins and flooders)

I think so too. Display it only to people with the bot flag, and their edits will be tagged as bot edits iff they check the box. The API would be unaffected, and continue to function as it did before. As a product manager I am wary of adding more clutter into the already busy edit interface, but given the scope of the feature (i.e. it only displays to people flagged as bots), I think it'd be okay. Dan -- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager for Platform and Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation

John Mark Vandenberg

2:09 a.m.

On May 20, 2014 8:39 AM, "Dan Garry" <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is necessary

Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what you use this for, to help me understand? :-) > Implementing the parameter (whether the current status quo or my > suggestion) in UI is important, I think adding a mark box besides minor

and

...

watch options would be great (for bots, admins and flooders)

busy

...

edit interface, but given the scope of the feature (i.e. it only displays to people flagged as bots), I think it'd be okay.

K. Peachey

2:51 a.m.

Because humans use it these days, not boys generally in the web interface and it would just make stuff harder for people that use it… On Tuesday, May 20, 2014, John Mark Vandenberg <jayvdb(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On May 20, 2014 8:39 AM, "Dan Garry" <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org <javascript:;>> wrote:

On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com <javascript:;>>

wrote:

As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is necessary

and

watch options would be great (for bots, admins and flooders)

I think so too. Display it only to people with the bot flag, and their edits will be tagged as bot edits iff they check the box. The API would

unaffected, and continue to function as it did before. As a product manager I am wary of adding more clutter into the already

busy

edit interface, but given the scope of the feature (i.e. it only displays to people flagged as bots), I think it'd be okay.

If it is role based ('bot'), why not change it (in 1.24?) to always *not* flag the UI edits as bot edits, displaying a warning to that effect? Do we have many UI scaping bot frameworks in use these days? -- John _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Nicolas Vervelle

5:17 a.m.

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:39 AM, Dan Garry <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is necessary

Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what you use this for, to help me understand? :-)

I think an example of bot using this API parameter is Salebot on frwiki : when it reverts a vandalism, this edit is not marked with the bot flag so that it appears in the recent changes, and made human aware that a vandalism has been reverted. For other things, it may have its edit marked with the bot flag. Nico

Legoktm

6:31 a.m.

On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote:

...

On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is necessary

Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what you use this for, to help me understand? :-)

If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for humans to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't flag it's edits with the bot flag so humans can review them. Another case where this recently came up is in MassMessage (bug 65180). Some edits like those to user talk pages should be marked as a bot since the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are made to Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so users will see them in their watchlists. -- Legoktm

Amir Ladsgroup

6:35 a.m.

Thank you legoktm for exampling, Another case that happened in Persian Wikipedia, is creating bot-generated articles by user request this task is too contervisal to be marked as bot and we didn't mark it but other edits of my bot is marked as bot Best On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

...

On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote:

On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote: As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is

necessary Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what you

use this for, to help me understand? :-)

-- Amir

Jon Robson

1:05 p.m.

I'm confused. Why wouldn't you just mark a user account as being a bot and simply determine bot edits from username alone? Any other mechanism seems prone to abuse or being inaccurate... On 20 May 2014 07:36, "Amir Ladsgroup" <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

wrote:

On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote:

On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote: As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is

necessary Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what you

use this for, to help me understand? :-)

If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for humans to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't flag

it's

edits with the bot flag so humans can review them. Another case where this recently came up is in MassMessage (bug 65180). Some edits like those to user talk pages should be marked as a bot since the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are made

Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so users will see them in their watchlists. -- Legoktm _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- Amir _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Dan Garry

1:08 p.m.

Bot flags are only given out to people that are trusted to not abuse it. I'd say this works quite well, because cases of people abusing the fact that the bot flag hides edits from recent changes are almost entirely unheard of. Dan On 20 May 2014 09:05, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Thank you legoktm for exampling, Another case that happened in Persian Wikipedia, is creating

bot-generated

articles by user request this task is too contervisal to be marked as bot and we didn't mark it but other edits of my bot is marked as bot Best On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia(a)gmail.com

wrote:

> > On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote: > >> On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is >>> necessary >>> >>> Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what

you

>> use >> this for, to help me understand? :-) >> > > If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for

humans

to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't flag

it's > edits with the bot flag so humans can review them. > > Another case where this recently came up is in MassMessage (bug 65180). > Some edits like those to user talk pages should be marked as a bot

since

the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are made

to > Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so users

will

see them in their watchlists. -- Legoktm _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- Amir _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager for Platform and Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation

Amir Ladsgroup

1:08 p.m.

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I'm confused. Why wouldn't you just mark a user account as being a bot and simply determine bot edits from username alone? Any other mechanism seems prone to abuse or being inaccurate...

People gave several examples of bot tasks that needs to be seen in RC and they weren't abuse

...

On 20 May 2014 07:36, "Amir Ladsgroup" <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you legoktm for exampling, Another case that happened in Persian Wikipedia, is creating

bot-generated

wrote:

you

>> use >> this for, to help me understand? :-) >> > > If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for

humans

to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't flag

since

the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are made

to > Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so users

will

-- Amir _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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-- Amir

Jon Robson

1:11 p.m.

So bot tasks are sometimes performed from user accounts that don't belong to bots... o_O why?! (forgive my naivety I come into this conversation as an outside with no prior knowledge of how this stuff works) On 20 May 2014 14:09, "Amir Ladsgroup" <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I'm confused. Why wouldn't you just mark a user account as being a bot

and

simply determine bot edits from username alone? Any other mechanism seems prone to abuse or being inaccurate...

People gave several examples of bot tasks that needs to be seen in RC and they weren't abuse

On 20 May 2014 07:36, "Amir Ladsgroup" <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you legoktm for exampling, Another case that happened in Persian Wikipedia, is creating

bot-generated > articles by user request this task is too contervisal to be marked as

bot

> and we didn't mark it but other edits of my bot is marked as bot > > Best > > > On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia(a)gmail.com > >wrote: > > > > > On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote: > > > >> On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not

>>> necessary >>> >>> Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what

you

>> use >> this for, to help me understand? :-) >> > > If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for

humans > > to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't flag > it's > > edits with the bot flag so humans can review them. > > > > Another case where this recently came up is in MassMessage (bug

65180).

> Some edits like those to user talk pages should be marked as a bot

since > > the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are

made

to > Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so users

will

-- Amir _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Amir Ladsgroup

1:23 p.m.

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 5:41 PM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

So bot tasks are sometimes performed from user accounts that don't belong to bots... o_O why?!

No, some of bots tasks needs to be seen and reviewed by others, for example there are bots that do task per user request in a page (like an automated vending machine that people can go to a page and request things and bots do it automatically), or automated reverts (that are being made by clue bot NG) or other things that people exampled before in this discussion

...

(forgive my naivety I come into this conversation as an outside with no prior knowledge of how this stuff works) On 20 May 2014 14:09, "Amir Ladsgroup" <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I'm confused. Why wouldn't you just mark a user account as being a bot

and

simply determine bot edits from username alone? Any other mechanism seems prone to abuse or being inaccurate...

People gave several examples of bot tasks that needs to be seen in RC and they weren't abuse

On 20 May 2014 07:36, "Amir Ladsgroup" <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you legoktm for exampling, Another case that happened in Persian Wikipedia, is creating

bot-generated > articles by user request this task is too contervisal to be marked as

bot > > and we didn't mark it but other edits of my bot is marked as bot > > > > Best > > > > > > On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Legoktm <

legoktm.wikipedia(a)gmail.com

> >wrote: > > > > > On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote: > > > >> On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not

is > > >>> necessary > > >>> > > >>> Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and

what

> you > > >> use > > >> this for, to help me understand? :-) > > >> > > > > > > If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for > humans > > > to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't

flag

> it's > > edits with the bot flag so humans can review them. > > > > Another case where this recently came up is in MassMessage (bug

65180).

> Some edits like those to user talk pages should be marked as a bot

since > > the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are

made > > to > > > Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so

users

will

> see them in their watchlists. > > -- Legoktm > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikitech-l mailing list > Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l > -- Amir _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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-- Amir

Chris Steipp

3:45 p.m.

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 6:05 AM, Jon Robson <jdlrobson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I'm confused. Why wouldn't you just mark a user account as being a bot and simply determine bot edits from username alone?

Volume? Cluebot does a high volume of edits, but as mentioned, doesn't want the edit hidden from RC.

...

Any other mechanism seems prone to abuse or being inaccurate... On 20 May 2014 07:36, "Amir Ladsgroup" <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you legoktm for exampling, Another case that happened in Persian Wikipedia, is creating

bot-generated

wrote:

you

>> use >> this for, to help me understand? :-) >> > > If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for

humans

to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't flag

since

the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are made

to > Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so users

will

-- Amir _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Brad Jorsch (Anomie)

2:05 p.m.

On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Dan Garry <dgarry(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

1. When editing via the API, allows the user to choose whether or not to flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter. 2. When editing via the standard editing interface, flags all edits (i.e. all human made edits) as bot edits.

Note for #2, it's possible to submit the edit with a "bot=0" parameter to avoid the edit being marked as "bot". This also works for logged actions (which someday need to be fixed in the API to be able to be non-flagged, much as was done for edits in r29540). I've always thought the reasons for this disparate behavior are primarily historical: Way back, there was no editing API and the bot userright forced edits from the account to be marked as bot edits. But people discovered, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, that some edits by accounts that should have the bot flag shouldn't be hidden from Watchlists and RecentChanges; on enwiki at least, this led to some bot accounts not being flagged as such. And eventually things were changed so that the flagging of the edit was optional rather than a requirement. For index.php edits this had to be done in a "specify that you don't want this edit flagged" manner to avoid breaking all the existing code. But for the new editing API it could be done more directly, so it was. As for the lack of a UI for "bot=0" in index.php edits, I expect it's both because others don't want to clutter the UI either and because the editing API now exists for actual bots. 1. What's the user story for including the edit-level granularity for

...

bot accounts in the API?

"bot" flagging of edits essentially controls whether the edits are hidden by default in Watchlists and RecentChanges. Many bots make a mixture of edits that should be hidden and edits that should not be. 2. What's the user story for making it so that every edit made by a

...

human on a bot account is flagged as bot edit?

I don't know of one, besides historical reasons as mentioned above. I don't know about the policies on other wikis, but on enwiki a human editing with a bot-flagged account is explicitly doing so to have those edits hidden from RecentChanges and is supposed to use a "regular" account for their normal editing. -- Brad Jorsch (Anomie) Software Engineer Wikimedia Foundation

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participants (12)

Amir Ladsgroup
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Chris Steipp
Dan Garry
Gergo Tisza
John
John Mark Vandenberg
Jon Robson
K. Peachey
Legoktm
Nicolas Vervelle
Roan Kattouw