Hi Kerry,
I agree that this discussion is happening among a small group of
exprerienced people, and research with newbies about their preferred
communication tools would be valuable.
However, I feel that Kiwi offers a friendlier experience than we have now,
is an incremental improvement to the user experience, and poses little risk
of making the new user experience more challenging. There might be
technical challenges, and I hope we will hear about any of those from the
devs either on Freenode's side or Wikimedia's side. If anyone has
alternative suggestions to Kiwi or knows reasons to stick with the status
quo, I hope they will speak up.
I appreciate how you are thinking about this issue from the point of view
of the people we would like to help. In this case I feel the risk is low so
an extensive user study is not needed. However if you still feel
differently I would welcome hearing your views. Please let me know if I
have addressed your concerns.
Thanks,
Pine
On Aug 11, 2014 12:02 AM, "Kerry Raymond" <kerry.raymond(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Pine, with respect, I think you are looking at this in terms of “how do
> we shoehorn these users into our way of doing things” instead of asking
> “what should the user experience be like?”.
>
>
>
> In the scenario we are discussing, we have a new user (or even not-so-new
> user) sitting in front of a Wikipedia edit window presumably feeling dazed
> and confused by some aspect of it (or all of it). So they click the
> friendly “get help” button (or whatever it is) and we take them to
> IRC-plus-or-minus-Kiwi with which they probably have no experience. I feel
> it will just reinforce the sensation of “I don’t understand any of this”
> and make it less likely they will seek help and more likely that they will
> cease editing. So much of Wikipedia is built for by developers for
> developers (or at least designed by experienced users for experienced
> users) and this seems to be an entirely unconscious process.
>
>
>
> I know WMF employs at least one user experience person. I think that
> person should be doing the user studies (or whatever it is that they do) to
> find out what might work best. Anyone taking part in this conversation in
> this mailing list is presumably an existing editor of some experience; we
> are probably not the people to decide how best to deliver help to the new
> user. If there is one thing the existing “community” should not decide, it
> is the new user experience, or else we condemn ourselves to a user
> experience that only works for the kinds of editors we currently have (a
> community that has a massive gendergap and a declining active editor base).
>
>
>
> Kerry
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* gendergap-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> gendergap-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Pine W
> *Sent:* Monday, 11 August 2014 3:18 PM
> *To:* ee(a)lists.wikimedia.org; Addressing gender equity and exploring ways
> to increase theparticipation of women within Wikimedia projects.;
> wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> *Subject:* [Gendergap] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Following up on a conversation on the gendergap email list, I am
> discussing with Freenode the possibility of changing the default web client
> to one that is friendlier and has a less technical feel, primarily for the
> benefit of new users who access #wikipedia-en-help by clicking on a link.
> The likely candidate for a new IRC client is Kiwi. If Freenode wants to
> maintain their current default web client we can still use Kiwi if we run
> it on Wikimedia pages. Would WMF or the volunteer dev community be willing
> to implement this? If so, is filing a Bugzilla bug the best way to get the
> wheels of progress to turn?
>
> Pine
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
On Mon, 11 Aug 2014, at 04:07, Tomasz W. Kozłowski wrote:
> Philippe,
> the patch is not for the MediaWiki software but for the configuration
> of Wikimedia wikis (it's in the operations/mediawiki-config repository
> on Gerrit).
>
> It has been merged and deployed on the production cluster. The user
> right has been added to the global staff user group, and it has
> already been used to protect the MediaWiki:Common.js page on the
> German Wikipedia so that no one can edit it except Wikimedia
> Foundation employees.
>
> Wikimedia Foundation is using this user right to actively fight its
> community of volunteers.
>
> This is something I cannot and will not support.
>
> Tomasz
>
completely agree with 100% of the above
cc'ing 2 more lists
ftr, the change discussed is: <https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153302/>
After VE fiasco I would had expected to see a less full of itself
Wikimedia. I was wrong.
The Roman Empire strength was its ability to make Romans out of other peoples.
The wiki strenght is making editors and develepers out of netizens.
Rome felt before losing its ability.
Is wiki losing its one? Will it survive becoming a weird socialnetwork ran
by a bunch of employee with no actual experience of daily editing?
Vito
Inviato con AquaMail per Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com
Il 10 agosto 2014 22:31:55 Tyler Romeo <tylerromeo(a)gmail.com> ha scritto:
> Wow this is pretty depressing, although in today's age I cannot say I'm
> surprised. Corporations have always been about controlling their consumers,
> and it was really only a matter of time before the WMF fell into that as
> well. I wonder whether there's any legitimate justification for all of
> this, or whether it's just a repeat of the VisualEditor fiasco, aka, "the
> WMF knows best" kind of thing.
>
> *-- *
> *Tyler Romeo*
> Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
> Major in Computer Science
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Siebrand Mazeland <siebrand(a)kitano.nl>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > > Op 10 aug. 2014 om 20:12 heeft Ricordisamoa <
> > ricordisamoa(a)openmailbox.org> het volgende geschreven:
> > >
> > > <hopeless>I'd really like to hear Jimbo's opinion on the
> > matter</hopeless>
> >
> > You should really watch Jimmy's speech at the Wikimania closing session.
> > You might be surprised.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > --
> > Siebrand
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
This is, by far, the most disgusting and disrespectful action
undertaken by the Foundation that I have ever witnessed. The 2012 mass
desysopping of volunteer administrators on the WMF wiki and the past
threats of desysopping users re: VisualEditor and MediaViewer do not
even come close to this.
It is clear to me that the Foundation has agreed on this sneaky change
behind closed doors while some of the most outspoken Wikimedia
volunteers were (and still are) gathered in London. This is not the
first time that we're seeing this happpen, and it is clear to me that
the Foundation has lost all remaining moral authority to talk about
transparency and involving volunteers in the decision-making process.
Erik has forced his employees, including a so-called community
advocacy liaison, to use this opportunity to actively fight the
volunteer community of the German Wikipedia. He himself has engaged in
a wheel war over this, and continues to shove MediaViewer down the
German Wikipedia's community throat.
I'm not sure what was the purpose of this change, but if its aim was
to escalate the already tense situation between the WMF and its
volunteer communities regarding MediaViewer, protecting the
MediaWiki:Common.js page so that no one can edit it was the perfect
choice.
This action will cause a huge shitstorm, and Erik deserves every bit
of shit and mud that will be thrown his way.
You can force anything you like on your employees, but you cannot
force the volunteer community to do what you want, not in a manner
like this.
Remember that in the end, the community can exist without the WMF, but
there is no WMF without the community.
--
Tomasz
On Fri, 8 Aug 2014, at 11:47, MZMcBride wrote:
> [...]
> For comparison, we now have MediaViewer, which moved through as a beta
> feature. They say MediaViewer may one day be as feature-ful as the file
> description pages we've had for a long time (editing capability, oh my!).
> [...]
> MZMcBride
Related: http://unicorn.wmflabs.org/winter/index.html?page=Temperate_climate
This re-make of the Vector skin lacks a prominent Edit button.
I would adore talking to the relevant project people, but I /do not see them/ on this wonderful page:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Winter
Hi all,
I would like to encourage those of us who may have missed Lila's keynote
speech at Wikimania to listen to it. [1] In her speech, Lila takes a long
view of Wikimedia's history and future. She talks about incremental and
disruptive changes that are happening socially and technologically such as
the shift toward mobile and wearable computing, and the use of technology
in the developing world. She also talks about modes of contribution, and
changes inside the Wikimedia projects that would encourage more people to
participate actively.
Thanks very much, Lila. I look forward to seeing how the trends and
opportunities that you describe are addressed in our new strategic plan.
Pine
[1] http://new.livestream.com/wikimania/saturday2014
On 9 August 2014 09:58, David Cuenca <dacuetu(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> User:Vlsergey from ruwiki presented yesterday at the Wikidata Meetup a new
> wonderful infobox editor for Wikipedia infoboxes:
>
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Edit_directly_from_info…
>
> And also an improved authority template which you can see in action at
> Obama
>
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B0,_%D0%91%D0%B0%…
>
> Plus some interfaces for editing person info, taxons, and work/edition
> source info:
>
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2014/07#WEF_gad…
>
> I think these are great improvements for editing wikidata from wikipedia
> and I hope you can spread the word in your local wikis about these
> wonderful tools.
>
This is really interesting, thank you!
I wonder how much of this could be integrated into VisualEditor (possibly
as a "page settings" panel?), and/or into its own tab rather than as being
stuffed into the "page tools" box where it doesn't really belong.
I'd also be interested in thoughts from fellow Wikiwranglers
("Wikidata-ians") of the effect of making these edits really easy without
also making the feedback loop of community comment and policy expecations
clear.
J.
--
James D. Forrester
Product Manager, Editing
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
jforrester(a)wikimedia.org | @jdforrester
Yesterday at the Wikimania Hackathon, Brion, Gabriel, Quim, Rachel, Robla,
Tim, agreed on a series of little improvements to the Architecture RfC
process in order to distribute the effort and move the driving force from
the Engineering Community Team to the Architecture Committee.
>From now on, Architecture RfC related tasks are handled in a Phabricator
project:
http://fab.wmflabs.org/project/board/72/
While the RfCs themselves will continue to be documented at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment , in Phabricator we
will create tasks to reflect the RfCs that have actions pending and/or are
ready to be reviewed. This should help everybody understanding quickly what
is missing in an RfC to go through the process, and who is in charge to
work on what.
The Architecture Committee will meet regularly and decide the future RfCs
to be discussed. They will also run the RfC meetings. ECT will continue to
help scheduling and announcing these meetings. You can find the details at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_meetings
We will be creating tasks for the RfCs scheduled or likely to be scheduled.
If you are impatient or extremely helpful, you can create the tasks for the
RfCs that you are promoting.
--
Quim Gil
Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil