Jonathan Walther wrote: This reminds me of the (now thankfully rare) response to atheism that says that infidels can't have any ethical principles. Of course it's quite possible to derive ethical principles from a source other than religious beliefs about God's opinions. I manage to do this, for example, without difficulty. Now you imply that if someone has *no* absolute ethical principles, then they're incapable of acting morally (that is, they're sociopathic). This is equally false; it's quite possible to act morally on a basis other than your own absolute ethical principles. I manage to do this too, as it happens, although I'm a weak example (I have ethical principles, as per the previous paragraph, but I often restrict my behaviour morally even when my ethical principles argue otherwise); I know some other people with no ethics whatsoever that provide better examples. -- Toby