Hi Mark,
Your e-mails are VERY LONG!! I can't read all of it since most of it
is BLABLABLA... I'll reply to only a few points which you stated:
You might as well say "I don't know what to say to most of the things
you said. They're good arguments, and I have no logical rebuttal. But,
I will make a snide remark in an attempt to dodge them, and only argue
against the few points which I feel I have a good case for."
First of all the Low Saxon page is translated, I
haven't had the
chance to actually read everything word for word... I don't care in
what group Grunnings or Stellingwarvs and Sleeswyks falls... you are
correct though that Oost-Vrys (Ostfräisk, or something like that) is
understandable to us, the spelling used is a bit complicated but the
reason why we can understand it is because it is closely related to
Westlauwers-Vrys. Since Oost-Vrys isn't used on nds.wiki it's not
relevant, FYI, I read somewhere someone wanted to start a Ostfräisk
Wiki, but that's a completely different thing, not related to this at
all. I don't even believe the information is correct, but you're
welcome to check it if you want!!
Oostfreesk generally refers to the Low Saxon dialect spoken in
Ostfriesland, rather than the independent language spoken only in a
tiny village in the Saterland.
You say you don't care what group they fall in... you may not, but it
is very relevant here.
Again:
de noordelike groep (Sleeswyk-Holstein, Nedersaksen, Grunningen,
Drenthe, Stellingwarven, and Overyssel.)
de suudwestelike groep (Westfaolen, Twente, Sallaand, Gelderland).
In the Northern group, there is a mix of German and Dutch varieties of
Low Saxon. In the Southwest group, there are three Dutch varieties and
one German variety (Westphaelsch).
So, rather than dividing by country, it makes more sense to have one
Wikipedia for the "Noordelike groep", including Sleswigsch,
Grunnegers, Drèents, Stellingwarfs, and Overyssels, and another one
for the "Suudwestelike groep", including Westphaelsch, Tweants,
Sallands, and Veluws.
So, this is clear evidence -- VERY clear evidence -- that you are
placing an arbitrary dividing line.
Also, I wonder do you speak East or North Veluws? Acc'd to
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Low_Saxon_language&oldid=5202…
, East Veluws is a Dutch/Low Saxon mixed language, perhaps a Dutch
version of Missingsch.
As you mentioned the whole of the South group is in
the NL, the only
Dutch dialect in the North group is Grunnings, I'm not Grunnings so I
can't tell you if they understand DLS but I and most others don't
(OKAY THAT'S CLEAR - I HOPE?) In the Netherlands we understand
Grunnings (and for me as far as I've read Ostfräisk, I understand it
reasonably well) But if you know any Grunningers ask them if they
understand the nds.wiki some will but most won't, anyone is welcome on
the nds-nl.wiki when it's created but I'm sure that when it's created
they'll prefer that to nds.wiki. (Looking up information should be
easy not very difficult, then what's the point it!) the converter
doesn't help @all for me it could as well be a currency converter, but
I don't care, it doesn't help...
Again, you are trying to force a situation. If Grunnegers speakers can
understand it, then it is an arbitrary national division. You put the
dividing line at the border, when it doesn't make sense, especially
when you say "...I can't tell you if they understand DLS..."
Point B: I don't care if they all have a different
way of writing, if
you want to make a wiki workable then you have to have a common
writing system (especially if the way of pronouncing in most dialects
are the same, only the writing style differs - as seen on nds.wiki -)
You don't care? But maybe they do. You are a speaker only of Veluws,
you cannot speak for all other Low Saxon speakers in the Netherlands.
They might want separate Wikipedias, or they might not. But then, you
wouldn't know that any better than I would, because neither of us is a
native speaker of, say, Grunnegers or Dreents.
Point C: No one cares if it's patentplatt, if they
have a problem with
it they will change it!
Noone cares if it's patentplatt? You obviously didn't read Point C --
Jonny Meinbohm and Ron Hahn __DO__ care. Ron tried to change it, but
Heiko was as always very cold towards him and took a very uninviting
stance, as usual, rather than welcoming in and being thankful for a
native speaker as it should be.
They may use the term LANGUAGE, but it's
officially not a language but
a DIALECT of Nedersaksisch!! (No arguing about that, that's a fact!..
in fact most things are a fact so don't know why you're arguing)
Yes, but, then, "officially" Taiwan is part of China, yet it doesn't
generally follow laws made by the PRC government; Serbian and Croatian
are "officially" separate languages but they are at best dialects and
at worst sociolects; Cantonese and Mandarin are "officially" one
language, but most linguists will tell you they aren't; Somalia is
"officially" unified under a single government, but this is only at an
international level and the real situation is one part order two parts
chaos, with a number of self-declared independent states and powerful
warlords fighting for influence.
French is the only "official" language of France, but that doesn't
mean nobody there speaks any other languages.
What is official, and what is reality, are often different.
I told you I'm BILINGUAL, that means I'm
fluent in aswell DUTCH as
VELUWS (NEDERSAKSISCH) but because Dutch is the prominent language and
it's seen as most "polite" language, you hear more Dutch ...explained
that to you in the last e-mail so not doing that again! (One has to
explain thing 100 times to you - that's why Heiko doesn't want to
continue this conversation because we're not getting anywhere with
you, you don't even speak LS so how could you judge the language??
Please for the next time you come tell your stories here, have some
facts instead of "Mark believes that...")
Please, realise there is a difference between being fluent in a
language, and it being your mother tongue. I can study a language for
10 years at the age of 45 and become "fluent", but it won't make it my
native language. I can have a native language which I am very poor at
speaking now, just because it is my native language does not mean I am
fluent.
You still are using the two terms interchangably. Are you native AND
fluent? Or are you just fluent? "native" means it is the language of
your cradle, spoken by one or both of your parents or other people who
raised you. "fluent" means you are very capable in it, and can read
books and carry on conversations and write letters. Most (but not
all!) native speakers are also fluent, but by far not all fluent
speakers are native.
TIP: For you next e-mail make it SHORT and don't
talk BLABLABLA but
with actual content, to which we can reply!
What exactly are you talking about here? I never once said
"BLABLABLA"... you put those words in my mouth.
So, to sum up, the main points which you still have not responded to
(you said to some of them even that you "didn't care") are...
1) The groupings of Low Saxon dialects/languages/varieties/speeches
indicates that the dividing line is more properly drawn between North
and South, not East (Germany) and West (Netherlands).
In case you still don't seem to get it, I've made an illustration:
http://fixedsys.org/~node_ue/o'ohadag/index.PNG
The red is Northern, and the purple is Southwestern. As you can see,
each extends into Germany. The long dark blue line is the division YOU
would have us make between "German Low Saxon" and "Dutch Low Saxon".
I've also labelled other languages of the Netherlands, I think it
makes it easier to relate with the map.
2) It's quite self-serving of you to say, "Well, they're officially
one language" just because you want them to have a single Wikipedia. I
can't find very many pages that say "dutch low saxon":
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22dutch+low+saxon%22 finds 275 pages;
out of the first 10, 3 are from your messages to this list, and most
of the other ones have them as consecutive members of a list, like:
"Dutch, Low Saxon" (with Frisian or German usually coming after), or
in the phrase "Dutch/Low Saxon mixture" to refer to East Veluws.
"netherlands low saxon" only finds 10 results, only one of which seems
to be referring to it as a variant (others are in phrases like "In the
Netherlands, Low Saxon is...".
If we subtract all the "Dutch/Low Saxon mixture" results, we get
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22dutch+low+saxon%22+-%22mixture+dialect+in…
174 pages.
Among the first 10 of these, 5 of them are from messages written by
you. None of the other ones in the first 10 refer to "Dutch Low Saxon"
(again, they are all parts of lists and the like) except for
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2003-April/msg00069.html ,
which actually raises the issue of disunity of Low Saxon in the
Netherlands, with many different dialects, orthographies, etc.
Now, you asked me to present you with "facts" rather than my opinion.
I have provided you with plenty of evidence from websites now (I will
direct you again to
http://members.home.nl/goaitsen/twents/ ,
http://www.drentsetaol.nl/ http://www.grunnegertoal.nl/ , and
http://www.stellingwarfs.nl/ ...) that 1) not many people seem to
believe in a variety called "Dutch Low Saxon"; 2) many people regard
Stellingwarfs, Grunnegers, Drèents, Tweants, Achterhooks, Veluws,
Overyssels, etc. as separate languages.
Mark
