Jimmy wrote: Yes, I agree with that. What are the better ways? I'm getting disgusted with *what I perceive to be* (and which in fact may not be, at all) a breakdown of community standards. Notwithstanding 24, I think everyone would agree that wikipedia is a community. We try to be friendly, we have the occasional tiffs, we choose to live together and socialize a bit. This to me is a no-brainer: Wikipedia is a community? Yes. Physical communities have little compunction against casting people out, either explicitly or implicitly: through gentrification, through draconian rules regarding presentation, through neighborhood groups, through calls to the police. Sometimes this is a good thing, frequently it is not. Yet, unlike most communities, we are a community bound by choice rather than circumstance, and we are bound by intention rather than location. We are together because we have a common goal. We are a community of people trying to build a free online encyclopedia. To this regard, it seems to me that we should not hesitate to show people the door when they prove not to share our goal. We are a community, yes, but we are not a community of people whose goal is to remove content, or to argue or chitchat (though some of that will invariably occur along the way). Imagine a community of economists who choose to work together in a room dedicated to studying the economy. An overzealous filmnut with the initials KQ shows up and wants to talk about films endlessly, and at every mention of trade he goes off on _Star Wars I_. He doesn't know much about the economy, he doesn't know much about trade, he doesn't even know much about math; if he's aware of these defects he doesn't even particularly care. What he's found is a healthy community who let him hang out, using their tolerance to assuage his own clingy personal needs. Would this person belong in a group of economists, given that he can't discuss economy? Should he go with them to work? Certainly not. Should he know this already? Certainly. Should the group tell him this if he does not know? IMHO: absolutely. He is interfering with work. He is welcome to stay provided he's not interfering with work, but if he is, he has to go. I see nothing wrong with people who want to change community rules. If we need to discuss a rule change, we need to discuss a rule change. What might be helpful is to put on each rule and convention page a gloss over why the decision to support that convention was reached. That way people can address specific points in the future rather than starting the whole debate again from scratch (I've been here a year and a half and I've seen more than enough of the basic debates about basic conventions). These new debates, when started, should be both calm & respectful, which IMHO means logical and unemotional. If the community decides that we should append "all hail Dubya the wise and mighty U.S. emperor" to every page title, then I will either roll up my sleeves and get started or I will remove myself from the community. But what I will *not* do is remain in a community whose goal is so often ignored or forgotten that it resembles usenet. I'm not here to chitchat incessantly; I'm not here to sling insults and cast people out; I want to help contribute to this free/free encyclopedia because I believe in the idea. I've seen what we've done in two years; I want to see what we can do in another two. It seems to me that people should know what we're here for and respect that, and people who don't should be asked, kindly, if their priorities are straight in coming to the website. As far as I'm concerned, the encyclopedia is what matters; there are plenty of other places online to chitchat, argue, or pontificate. Try yahoo!groups, or livejournal, or usenet, or even slashdot. Our community is unified in purpose, and quite frankly, anyone who is not here for that purpose belongs to a different community. Banning comes about IMHO because people aren't seeing enough community pressure to quit being an asshole and/or get to work. So how we determine someone has nothing to contribute? Isn't that a bold decision? How long do we allow someone to try to contribute before deciding it's not worth it? I believe that: 1) It should not be necessary to tell people to leave. The community expectation should be so great that we are here to build an encyclopedia that trolls and vandals are immediately and thoroughly discouraged. 2)I'd rather not feel compelled to tell people to leave because they're interfering. Most people realize it, and so most people don't dabble where they don't belong. 3) If someone proves a stubborn & insistent impediment, we should tell him or her to leave. 4) When we do tell someone to leave, we should be able to enforce it if necessary. some people are simply not helpful. We don't all agree who those people are, but I think we do agree that such people exist. For those people who won't listen to reason and won't listen to community pressure, we should have an accurate means of blocking access. We are accepting to people by default, but wasps should make their nests outside, not inside. I daresay our standards are fairly open: come here to help build an encyclopedia. Do not come here to chitchat, to troll, to play. Work may be fun, work may not always be fun (I know this for certain), but work is why we are here. We are open to people who want to help; we are not open to people who want to hinder. We also, it seems (and here I'm thinking of Helga), are not open to people who want to help and consistently can not. Jerry Lewis can play in the [[wikipedia:sandbox]]; he should keep his hands off the [[muriatic acid]]. kq p.s. I like Axel's idea of making an edit per email to the list. This was a long email, and so deserved more than a few edits--however, the 'pedia is responding very slowly. I will redeem myself. :-) http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Aunt_May&diff=439390&ol… (and later adding the missing verb) :-) http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=The_Third_Man&diff=0&ol… http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Academy_Award_for_Best_Cinemato… and corrections. Speaking of which, why doesn't "preview" preview? All I get is a text-edit box showing what I've typed in. An HTML preview might be handy.