[Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user (was: Wikipedia privacy)]

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Alan Greenspan needs to learn...

Jimmy Wales

4 Apr 2003 4 Apr '03

9:13 p.m.

Since this would be a system-wide change, not English-only, we should discuss it over here, too. ----- Forwarded message from "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor(a)abc.com> ----- From: "Poor, Edmund W" <Edmund.W.Poor(a)abc.com> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 15:59:46 -0500 To: <wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org> Subject: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user (was: Wikipedia privacy) Well, here's an idea. Give sysops emergency power to ban a logged-in user (by name), while simultaneously blindly banning their IP address -- temporarily. And they'd be honor bound to report the ban to the list, just as when a sysop protects a page to stop an edit war. For example, user:Skeezix messes up a lot of pages, so sysop BigCheese spends countless hours cleaning up after him and finally says it's not worth it. After some discussion on the mailing list -- or in a really urgent case, unilaterally -- the sysop presses the magic "Ban this logged-in user" button. Whereupon two things happen: 1. The user's account is blocked. 2. The user's IP address is blocked. And one thing doesn't happen: 3. No user, not even a sysop, can see the blocked IP. So if Skeezix tries to log in as user:Spreitel -- he can't because his IP is blocked. Advantages: * Stops the vandal cold. * Avoids revealing IP addresses. Disadvantages: * Like all banning mechanisms, it could be abused. * If the IP is shared by "innocent" parties, they also get blocked. Ed Poor _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)wikipedia.org http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ----- End forwarded message -----

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Karl Eichwalder

5 Apr 5 Apr

1:06 a.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

Jimmy Wales <jwales(a)bomis.com> writes:

...

Since this would be a system-wide change, not English-only, we should discuss it over here, too.

You will not solve a single "problem" by banning. All these problems are communication problems or these involved parties are simply psycho cases needing our support. Thus, no banning actions, please.

...

Disadvantages: * Like all banning mechanisms, it could be abused. * If the IP is shared by "innocent" parties, they also get blocked.

Vicki Rosenzweig

2:21 a.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

At 07:06 PM 4/4/03 +0200, Karl wrote:

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Jimmy Wales <jwales(a)bomis.com> writes:

Since this would be a system-wide change, not English-only, we should discuss it over here, too.

You will not solve a single "problem" by banning. All these problems are communication problems or these involved parties are simply psycho cases needing our support.

[[Wikipedia is not]] a mental health treatment facility. People with mental problems may benefit from many kinds of support, but it is not our mission or obligation to provide them. There really are people who enjoy spraying obscenities on other people's walls and Web sites. If you know how to stop them from wanting that, you should publish the technique, preferably in a peer-reviewed journal so it will receive wide circulation. In the meantime, we repaint walls, buy paint-resistant subway cars, and otherwise prevent and deal with vandalism. -- Vicki Rosenzweig vr(a)redbird.org http://www.redbird.org

Lee Daniel Crocker

2:24 a.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

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(Vicki Rosenzweig <vr(a)redbird.org>)g>): [[Wikipedia is not]] a mental health treatment facility.

Damn, I wish I'd thought of that line. I hope you don't mind if I steal it now and then. :-) -- Lee Daniel Crocker <lee(a)piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/> "All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past, are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC

Vicki Rosenzweig

2:36 a.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

At 12:24 PM 4/4/03 -0600, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:

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(Vicki Rosenzweig <vr(a)redbird.org>)g>): [[Wikipedia is not]] a mental health treatment facility.

Damn, I wish I'd thought of that line. I hope you don't mind if I steal it now and then. :-)

Help yourself. Attribute or not, as you like--this is a Wikipedia thing, after all. (Unlike you, I'm not putting all my works in the public domain--I have hopes of selling a few more of them--but I play by Wikipedia rules when doing Wikipedia things.)

...

-- Lee Daniel Crocker <lee(a)piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/> "All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past, are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

-- Vicki Rosenzweig vr(a)redbird.org http://www.redbird.org

Karl Eichwalder

2:39 a.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

Vicki Rosenzweig <vr(a)redbird.org> writes:

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[[Wikipedia is not]] a mental health treatment facility. People with mental problems may benefit from many kinds of support, but it is not our mission or obligation to provide them.

Sure, but there is no need to try to be a policemen or a juridical person either

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There really are people who enjoy spraying obscenities on other people's walls and Web sites. If you know how to stop them from wanting that,

First make "them" stop cluttering the surroundings with "legal" advertisement and the graffity <sp?> problem will vanish soon after :)

...

you should publish the technique, preferably in a peer-reviewed journal so it will receive wide circulation. In the meantime, we repaint walls, buy paint-resistant subway cars, and otherwise prevent and deal with vandalism.

Vandalism is something different -- vandalism is destroying cities by building road where drivers are "free" to drive fast and killing children (we Germans are great in this sport ;-((( ). Or vandalism is spoiling oceans with oil. [Of course, touching foreign walls or windows isn't legal! But as long as you try to fight against the kids it's you who will be the looser.] [I must check wikipedias what they tell us about vandalism ;) ] -- ke(a)suse.de (work) / keichwa(a)gmx.net (home): | http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o Free Translation Project: | _-\_<, http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/ | (*)/'(*)

Jimmy Wales

2:38 a.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

Karl Eichwalder wrote:

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First make "them" stop cluttering the surroundings with "legal" advertisement and the graffity <sp?> problem will vanish soon after :)

? There is no advertisement on wikipedia. If you're suggesting that banner ads on Yahoo (for example) are the sole or primary cause of people posting "fart fart fart" on wikipedia, I can only say, uh, I disagree. And in any event, until the communist revolution comes and I'm shot for being a capitalist, we aren't really able to test your hypothesis. --Jimbo

Karl Eichwalder

3:50 a.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

Jimmy Wales <jwales(a)bomis.com> writes:

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? There is no advertisement on wikipedia.

I did not claim that. To put it different: the more you try to make wikipedia a paradise or an ivory tower the more it's an interesting object for, ehm, interested parties. -- ke(a)suse.de (work) / keichwa(a)gmx.net (home): | http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o Free Translation Project: | _-\_<, http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/ | (*)/'(*)

Lee Daniel Crocker

4:01 a.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

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(Karl Eichwalder <ke(a)gnu.franken.de>)e>): To put it different: the more you try to make wikipedia a paradise or an ivory tower the more it's an interesting object for, ehm, interested parties.

What we're trying to make Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It is simply a fact of reality that there will be people who disagree with /that/ goal, and who want to make Wikipedia something else, like a community, or a news medium, or their personal playground. It's our job to make sure that it becomes an encyclopedia. That goal will not change, and anyone who actively interferes with that goal will be invited to pursue his interests elsewhere. -- Lee Daniel Crocker <lee(a)piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/> "All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past, are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC

The Cunctator

5:50 a.m.

New subject: How to ban a logged-in user

On 4/4/03 3:01 PM, "Lee Daniel Crocker" <lee(a)piclab.com> wrote:

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(Karl Eichwalder <ke(a)gnu.franken.de>)e>): To put it different: the more you try to make wikipedia a paradise or an ivory tower the more it's an interesting object for, ehm, interested parties.

However, noone, not even LDC, is the Keeper of the Encyclopedia Ideal. That is to say, while there are some things that Wikipedia is obviously not, noone should be able to aver with definitude what Wikipedia will be. An encyclopedia is, at its core, a repository of *all* human knowledge. That goes far beyond the traditional paper documents that dared claim the title "encyclopedia". So, while it's true that anyone who interferes with the goal of building an encyclopedia shouldn't be part of Wikipedia, we all should be a little humble about believing we know exactly how that goal should be realized.

Karl Eichwalder

12:24 p.m.

New subject: How to ban a logged-in user

The Cunctator <cunctator(a)kband.com> writes:

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On 4/4/03 3:01 PM, "Lee Daniel Crocker" <lee(a)piclab.com> wrote:

...

> What we're trying to make Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It is simply a > fact of reality that there will be people who disagree with /that/ goal, > and who want to make Wikipedia something else, like a community, or a > news medium, or their personal playground.

It just depends on the kind of playground you prefer; thus far wikipedia works as my playground ;) Mostly...

...

> It's our job to make sure that it becomes an encyclopedia. That goal > will not change, and anyone who actively interferes with that goal > will be invited to pursue his interests elsewhere.

For example, I'm convince it isn't okay to add am*zon book links; but the guys who have the power just think different. So what? And that link is that sophisticated that I as a user cannot do anything about it :-(

...

That is to say, while there are some things that Wikipedia is obviously not, noone should be able to aver with definitude what Wikipedia will be. An encyclopedia is, at its core, a repository of *all* human knowledge. That goes far beyond the traditional paper documents that dared claim the title "encyclopedia".

Thanks for your warm words I fully agree with. -- ke(a)suse.de (work) / keichwa(a)gmx.net (home): | http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o Free Translation Project: | _-\_<, http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/ | (*)/'(*)

Toby Bartels

4:09 a.m.

New subject: How to ban a logged-in user

Karl Eichwalder wrote in part:

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Gak. Now an *anti*-banning person doesn't know what "vandalism" means. These are both evil things, I agree, but not every evil act is vandalism. Deliberately writing POV articles is not vandalism (as we have recently had to remind several people on the [[en:]] list), and making poor regulatory decisions is not vandalism either. If you want a catch-all term for every evil act, the word is "evil". Let's save the word "vandalism" for vandalism, lest language become useless when every word has exactly the same meaning. -- Toby

Christopher Mahan

4:22 a.m.

New subject: How to ban a logged-in user

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Let's save the word "vandalism" for vandalism,

and let's not forget the fine article on vandals on the P. ===== Christopher Mahan chris_mahan(a)yahoo.com 818.943.1850 cell http://www.christophermahan.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com

Lee Daniel Crocker

2:23 a.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

...

You will not solve a single "problem" by banning. All these problems are communication problems or these involved parties are simply psycho cases needing our support.

That pleasant sentiment has been handily disproven here. Some people just refuse or aren't capable of playing well with others, and simply removing them from the mix has enabled us to concentrate on our goal of making an encyclopedia--if we have to take time out to support or reform every vandal, we'd never get anything else accomplished. Blocks have worked very well, and they'll continue to be a useful part of our process. The only question is in the details: who can block whom, when, how. Generally the wiki way is give liberal permissions to lots of people, and fix any screw-ups after the fact if needed. I don't see any reason why this process should be any different. -- Lee Daniel Crocker <lee(a)piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/> "All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past, are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC

Karl Eichwalder

2:44 a.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

Lee Daniel Crocker <lee(a)piclab.com> writes:

...

Blocks have worked very well, and they'll continue to be a useful part of our process.

Jimmy Wales

2:39 a.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

Karl Eichwalder wrote:

...

Lee Daniel Crocker <lee(a)piclab.com> writes:

Blocks have worked very well, and they'll continue to be a useful part of our process.

The more blocks will take place the less people like me are inclined to work on the project.

Then we're sorry to see you go. --Jimbo

The Cunctator

3:43 a.m.

New subject: How to ban a logged-in user

On Fri, 2003-04-04 at 13:39, Jimmy Wales wrote:

...

Karl Eichwalder wrote:

Lee Daniel Crocker <lee(a)piclab.com> writes:

Blocks have worked very well, and they'll continue to be a useful part of our process.

The more blocks will take place the less people like me are inclined to work on the project.

Then we're sorry to see you go.

He didn't say he'd go. And, as Tonto said, "What do you mean 'we'?" I agree with Karl that creating more blocks and levels of regulation is not the right direction to take Wikipedia.

Jimmy Wales

3:28 a.m.

New subject: How to ban a logged-in user

The Cunctator wrote:

...

Then we're sorry to see you go.

He didn't say he'd go. And, as Tonto said, "What do you mean 'we'?" I agree with Karl that creating more blocks and levels of regulation is not the right direction to take Wikipedia.

Fair enough. I likely overreacted to what I thought he was saying. --Jimbo

Lee Daniel Crocker

3:57 a.m.

New subject: How to ban a logged-in user

...

I agree with Karl that creating more blocks and levels of regulation is not the right direction to take Wikipedia.

Fair enough. I likely overreacted to what I thought he was saying. --Jimbo

I think you got it right the first time; Karl was /not/ saying that adding more blocks is the wrong direction to go--he was quite clearly advocating removing even the ones we have now, which should be reacted to with incredulity, because Wikipedia would not have been successful without them. The more moderate idea that any suggestion of new regulations should be met with skepticism and avoided without demonstrated need is a more reasonable one, but even there I tend to disagree. We aren't setting ourselves up as "police"--police interfere with /other/ people's lives. We're just exercising rational self-defense. -- Lee Daniel Crocker <lee(a)piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/> "All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past, are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC

Zoe

6 Apr 6 Apr

6:09 a.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

Why would some vandal's being blocked make you want to leave? Zoe Karl Eichwalder <ke(a)gnu.franken.de> wrote:Lee Daniel Crocker writes:

...

Blocks have worked very well, and they'll continue to be a useful part of our process.

The more blocks will take place the less people like me are inclined to work on the project. -- ke(a)suse.de (work) / keichwa(a)gmx.net (home): | http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o Free Translation Project: | _-\_<, http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/ | (*)/'(*) _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more

Karl Eichwalder

4:12 p.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

Zoe <zoecomnena(a)yahoo.com> writes:

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Why would some vandal's being blocked make you want to leave?

1. Technically that's impossible. Worse you might block innocent users using the same 2. I don't trust in sysops; I wouldn't even trust in me. -- ke(a)suse.de (work) / keichwa(a)gmx.net (home): | http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o Free Translation Project: | _-\_<, http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/ | (*)/'(*)

Zoe

6:01 a.m.

New subject: [Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com: [WikiEN-l] How to ban a logged-in user

What?! You really believe that NOBODY should EVER be banned? Zoe Karl Eichwalder <ke(a)gnu.franken.de> wrote:Jimmy Wales writes:

...

Since this would be a system-wide change, not English-only, we should discuss it over here, too.

...

Disadvantages: * Like all banning mechanisms, it could be abused. * If the IP is shared by "innocent" parties, they also get blocked.

Yes, these are the side effects making bans even more eval. -- ke(a)suse.de (work) / keichwa(a)gmx.net (home): | http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o Free Translation Project: | _-\_<, http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/ | (*)/'(*) _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more

Giskart

5 Apr 5 Apr

7:02 p.m.

...

Well, here's an idea. Give sysops emergency power to ban a logged-in user (by name), while simultaneously blindly banning their IP address -- temporarily. And they'd be honor bound to report the ban to the list, just as when a sysop protects a page to stop an edit war.

It is better than nothing but why not keep it simple? Show the ip-adress of all users to sysop's and give sysop's the power to block them. -- Contact: giskart AT wikipedia.be Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie http://www.wikipedia.be

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participants (9)

Christopher Mahan
Giskart
Jimmy Wales
Karl Eichwalder
Lee Daniel Crocker
The Cunctator
Toby Bartels
Vicki Rosenzweig
Zoe