Hi Mark
Imho, it is not acceptable at all.
We try to reach people in their mother language or at least a language
they handle very well, but we should not provide different content based
on any other specificity such as nationality, religion, political view point
and such. By definition, since we try to stick to neutrality, the content provided
should fit all.
If someone want to create a website or a book which is suitable for a specific group of
readers, he is free to do so in selecting certain articles or certain part of articles
or possibly a mix of articles from different languages.
But our goal is to fit everyone and our projects should fit this.
As is, articles written in english is not suitable on mi: just as articles in maori
would not be acceptable on the english wikipedia.
Something which was not clear in your message : Is Robin admin there, or has he tried to apply for adminship ?
Are they other editors over there and what do they think ?
Ant
-------------
Hi all,I would like to ask for some clarification of Wikimedia policy.Is it considered acceptable to have spearate Wikipedias for differentcultures and peoples rather than languages? Are any existingWikipedias considered in this capacity?Robin Patterson has asserted on mi: that rather than a Wikipedia inthe Maori language, it's intended as a Wikipedia for the Maori people,and thus extensive usage of the English language is OK or even good,since only 5% of Maori people are fluent in Maori.Similarly, he wanted to add English content to the Samoan Wikipediabecause "tens of thousands" of Samoans speak English fluently. Itshould be noted that neither of these languages are his nativelanguages. Maori, he lists as a Babel template level of 1 (his Frenchand German are better), yet he is the sole administrator at the MaoriWikipedia. He noted on his Samoan userpage that he knows only ahandful of Samoan words, yet he tried to apply there for sysopanyways.Mark
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Hi all, and certainly those of you with technical gifts,
Since yesterday, we recieve most of the interface text in older versions.
That means that we constantly read Dutch and English words and phrases,
along with some wrong, now-corrected, Limburgic ones. First, we thought it
was a co-effect of the software mainenance they anounced on en:, but since
it seems to endure, I would like to see this solved. I am pretty sure that
this is not intentional man's work, since we could not find anything in the
recent changes.
Thanks in advance,
Wouter
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Hi Servien!
Thanks for informing me about that. I must admit, I've never heard or read about ANS. So, like the name suggests that's supposed to work in but countries? A good idea for sure. However (and that's a big however), as far as I can tell noboby in Germany ever writes that way. Just have a look a websites from Germany written in nds. You won't ever find all those y's and v's there. Neither in Plattdüütsch literature you can find in book stores in Northern Germany. While that ANS spelling system might be a good thing in theory, I think you just couldn't re-educate thousands of people in order to have one single nds Wikipedia. But I guess I don't have to convince _you_ anyway.
Thanks for the sample phrase. Here's my try:
"Wenn <or "As"> en Minsch nich faken noog ruut <"na buten" would also work> kümmt ward he ook nich <equivalent for "höyl" would be "heel" but is usually not used here> bruun <future tense "wöyrden" also omitted here> sünnern blievt witt. <Note: I can`t really think of a word for "pale" now - you could possibly take "bleek" (without "witt" in that case) but I'm not 100% sure here>
Even though I have tried to stick to your wording as closely as possible, I think the differences are quite tremendous here. They go far beyond spelling. What was most striking to me was the use of the future tense in your sample phrase. The Plattdüütsch I know just doesn't have that - just like in spoken High German where that tense is not used either. But also the word "mer" (that's like "maar" in Dutch, isn't it?) wouldn`t be understood by readers in Germany. Other differences are less severe, of course. E. g. "genog" instead of "noog" would surely be understood, especially since we have "genug" in German. But take "kump" (do you speak an "ü" or an "u" there?) for "kümmt" for example or even "ie/y" instead of "he". If the decision about a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia were in my hands and I had to make that decision solely based on this one example - I would most definately create it! Not because I want to separate Dutch and German wikipedians - it's the 21st century and thank God we're good neighbours - but only of the language facts.
Boris
Servien Ilaino <servien(a)gmail.com>, wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 15:33:43:
Hi Boris,
The orthography used in that text seems to me is de Algemeyne
Neddersassische Schryvwys'... I also used to use it, but people don't
seem to understand it quite as well in the Netherlands and Germany, I
must honestly say I understand the ANS writing system way better then
the one you used at the bottom (of course there are words which are
completely unknown to me...)
Here is a sample of DLS in ANS writing system:
As 'n mins ny vaak genog buyten kump sal y ok ny höyl bruyn wöyrden
mer sal y spyrwit blyven.
And here in the traditional one:
As 'n mins nie vaok genog buut'n kump zal ie ok nie heul bruun wurd'n
mer zal ie spierwit bliev'n/blyv'n.
This is the one I use:
As 'n mins nie vaok genog buten kump sal ie ok nie heul bruun wurden
mer sal ie spierwit blyven. (it's a mixture of the traditional one and
a little from ANS, I don't use the apostrophes because like in the
word blyv'n is pronounced as "bliem" and this is confusing because
bak'n [bake] is also pronounced differently like "bakng".)
(Translation of the text:
If a person doesn't go outside much then he won't have a tanned look,
but will be pale white.)
Servien
2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger(a)web.de>:
>
> > Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
>
> Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
>
>
> > A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
> > Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
>
> Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
>
> Coming from the "Ünner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
>
> Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de Ünnerelv (in Hamborg un ümto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in düsse/sükse Fällen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
>
> Hmm...
>
> Boris
>
> Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>, wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
>
> Hi Boris,
>
> I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of
> people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of
> Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh
> wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which
> is "based on Missingsch".
>
> Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna
> actually ken the leid.
> (It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
>
> "It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current
> WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that. But
> they don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is
> "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of
> German. I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms,
> but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language,
> the grammar and the authentic idiom."
>
> Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ...
> would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ...
> and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really
> only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient,
> German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
>
> This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the
> difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I
> just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always
> welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
>
> Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even
> the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
>
> A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
>
> Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un
> kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un
> "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
>
> Hmm...
>
> Best
> Mark
>
> On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger(a)web.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mark!
> >
> > I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattdüütsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Norddüütsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
> >
> > I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However, I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
> >
> > Boris
> >
> > Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>, wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
> >
> > Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on
> > ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real
> > nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have
> > personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about
> > nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but
> > rather a "contact variety".
> >
> > Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this
> > huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the
> > fact that it's written in Missingsch.
> >
> > Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start
> > real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
> >
> > Mark
> >
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Ah, but in etymology "to come from" does not equate to "to be". And of
course in PIE we don't talk in roots, but in egregiously fully
inflected words.
On 7/7/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> People say that "Wiki" is derived from the Hawai'ian word wikiwiki.
>
> However, I have an inside source that says that Ward Cunningham got it
> from an unabridged dictionary. "Wiki" or "Wicky" is from the
> Anglo-Saxon "wici", which comes from the Proto-Germanic root
> "*hveik-", which is from the Proto-Indo-European root "*weigh-"
>
> Mark
Haruo
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This is what Mark sent to me privately.
>Here's *my* attempt at coming up with a consensus:
>
>1. Of course, Wikipedias should try to unite as many people as
>possible and transcend minor variations in languages (e. g. British
>and American English share one Wikipedia).
>
>2. Of course, the regional variants of Low Saxon form a dialect
>continuum, i. e. mutual intelligibility decreases with increasing
>distance.
>
>3. Of course, in linguistics national borders don't equal language
>barriers.
>
>4. However, in real-life political borders in Europe have throughout
>the centuries left clear marks on the way people speak and write. New
>words and idioms entered the dialects almost always via Standard
>German or Standard Dutch respectively. Whenever speakers of Low Saxon
>dialects write something down, they fall back on the languages they
>were taught writing in - that is either Dutch or German. Furthermore,
>all Low Saxon speakers in the Netherlands are confronted with Standard
>Dutch every single day while those living east of the border deal with
>Hochdeutsch day after day. Nevertheless, these differences may be
>surmountable and the issue should be explored further rather than
>acting rashly to create a linguistic fork.
>
>5. Of course, splitting nds into Dutch and German editions will not
>eliminate the difficulties a person from Pommeria will face in trying
>to understand the vernacular speech of someone from East Frisia.
>Although it will reduce the overall spectrum the Low Saxon Wikipedia
>has to cover now, it won't address the other problems that are at work
>here, not least the fact that nds.wiki is written mostly in
>Missingsch.
>
>When I first read the request for a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia I
>considered it a little far-fetched myself. I still do, and so far
>nobody's actually crafted a logical response to my arguments other
>than Boris, preferring instead to discount them because I'm not a
>native speaker, or to repeat the same thing over and over.
>
>So I've come to the conclusion that while it might appear to be an
>acceptable solution from some perspectives to set up a separate
>Wikipedia for Low Saxon in the Netherlands, it is not a very workable
>solution from a real world perspective.
>
>Mark
>
I cannot understand this in any other way than: "I am right, so create no
nds-nl Wikipedia". Mark you seem not to know the word "consensus". That
means that two opinions meet somewhere in between, not that either party
gets what it wants!
Wouter
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> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:50:13 +0200
> From: Boris Lohnzweiger
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch-Low Saxon test-mainpage
> To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <1278463972(a)web.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> Dear Wouter,
>
> I can't help but disagree. In my opinion, using Proto-Indo-European for the new Wikipedia is the only viable option. Additional benefit: we could finally close many redundant editions of Wikipedia like en:, fr:, es: ....
>
> Boris
So what is Proto-Indo-European for "wiki" anyway?
Haruo aka dzidzelalic
corrigendum: in my third sentence "but" should be "both"
wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 17:50:54:
Hi Servien!
Thanks for informing me about that. I must admit, I've never heard or read about ANS. So, like the name suggests that's supposed to work in but countries? A good idea for sure. However (and that's a big however), as far as I can tell noboby in Germany ever writes that way. Just have a look a websites from Germany written in nds. You won't ever find all those y's and v's there. Neither in Plattdüütsch literature you can find in book stores in Northern Germany. While that ANS spelling system might be a good thing in theory, I think you just couldn't re-educate thousands of people in order to have one single nds Wikipedia. But I guess I don't have to convince _you_ anyway.
Thanks for the sample phrase. Here's my try:
"Wenn <or "As"> en Minsch nich faken noog ruut <"na buten" would also work> kümmt ward he ook nich <equivalent for "höyl" would be "heel" but is usually not used here> bruun <future tense "wöyrden" also omitted here> sünnern blievt witt. <Note: I can`t really think of a word for "pale" now - you could possibly take "bleek" (without "witt" in that case) but I'm not 100% sure here>
Even though I have tried to stick to your wording as closely as possible, I think the differences are quite tremendous here. They go far beyond spelling. What was most striking to me was the use of the future tense in your sample phrase. The Plattdüütsch I know just doesn't have that - just like in spoken High German where that tense is not used either. But also the word "mer" (that's like "maar" in Dutch, isn't it?) wouldn`t be understood by readers in Germany. Other differences are less severe, of course. E. g. "genog" instead of "noog" would surely be understood, especially since we have "genug" in German. But take "kump" (do you speak an "ü" or an "u" there?) for "kümmt" for example or even "ie/y" instead of "he". If the decision about a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia were in my hands and I had to make that decision solely based on this one example - I would most definately create it! Not because I want to separate Dutch and German wikipedians - it's the 21st century and thank God we're good neighbours - but only of the language facts.
Boris
Servien Ilaino <servien(a)gmail.com>, wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 15:33:43:
Hi Boris,
The orthography used in that text seems to me is de Algemeyne
Neddersassische Schryvwys'... I also used to use it, but people don't
seem to understand it quite as well in the Netherlands and Germany, I
must honestly say I understand the ANS writing system way better then
the one you used at the bottom (of course there are words which are
completely unknown to me...)
Here is a sample of DLS in ANS writing system:
As 'n mins ny vaak genog buyten kump sal y ok ny höyl bruyn wöyrden
mer sal y spyrwit blyven.
And here in the traditional one:
As 'n mins nie vaok genog buut'n kump zal ie ok nie heul bruun wurd'n
mer zal ie spierwit bliev'n/blyv'n.
This is the one I use:
As 'n mins nie vaok genog buten kump sal ie ok nie heul bruun wurden
mer sal ie spierwit blyven. (it's a mixture of the traditional one and
a little from ANS, I don't use the apostrophes because like in the
word blyv'n is pronounced as "bliem" and this is confusing because
bak'n [bake] is also pronounced differently like "bakng".)
(Translation of the text:
If a person doesn't go outside much then he won't have a tanned look,
but will be pale white.)
Servien
2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger(a)web.de>:
>
> > Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
>
> Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
>
>
> > A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
> > Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
>
> Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
>
> Coming from the "Ünner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
>
> Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de Ünnerelv (in Hamborg un ümto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in düsse/sükse Fällen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
>
> Hmm...
>
> Boris
>
> Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>, wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
>
> Hi Boris,
>
> I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of
> people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of
> Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh
> wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which
> is "based on Missingsch".
>
> Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna
> actually ken the leid.
> (It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
>
> "It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current
> WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that. But
> they don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is
> "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of
> German. I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms,
> but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language,
> the grammar and the authentic idiom."
>
> Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ...
> would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ...
> and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really
> only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient,
> German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
>
> This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the
> difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I
> just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always
> welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
>
> Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even
> the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
>
> A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
>
> Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un
> kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un
> "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
>
> Hmm...
>
> Best
> Mark
>
> On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger(a)web.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mark!
> >
> > I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattdüütsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Norddüütsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
> >
> > I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However, I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
> >
> > Boris
> >
> > Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>, wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
> >
> > Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on
> > ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real
> > nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have
> > personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about
> > nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but
> > rather a "contact variety".
> >
> > Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this
> > huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the
> > fact that it's written in Missingsch.
> >
> > Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start
> > real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
> >
> > Mark
> >
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>From: Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>
> > Most of the time I prefer to avoid those hot-tempered arguments but this
>time I'd like to share a few things that crossed my mind while reading the
>e-mails on the Dutch Low Saxon issue. I hope I can keep it reasonably
>short.
> >
> > 1. Of course, Wikipedias should try to unite as many people as possible
>and transcend minor variations in languages (e. g. British and American
>English share one Wikipedia).
> >
> > 2. Of course, the regional variants of Low Saxon form a dialect
>continuum, i. e. mutual intelligibility decreases with increasing distance.
> >
> > 3. Of course, in linguistics national borders don't equal language
>barriers.
> >
> > 4. However, in real-life political borders in Europe have throughout the
>centuries left clear marks on the way people speak and write. New words and
>idioms entered the dialects almost always via Standard German or Standard
>Dutch respectively. Whenever speakers of Low Saxon dialects write something
>down, they fall back on the languages they were taught writing in - that is
>either Dutch or German. Furthermore, all Low Saxon speakers in the
>Netherlands are confronted with Standard Dutch every single day while those
>living east of the border deal with Hochdeutsch day after day. Thus, speech
>varieties can and do develop separately if they're spoken 4 km apart from
>one another - even if that's only the size of a Wal-Mart parking lot in
>Arizona.
> >
> > 5. Of course, splitting nds into Dutch and German editions will not
>eliminate the difficulties a person from Pommeria will face in trying to
>understand the vernacular speech of someone from East Frisia. But it will
>reduce the overall spectrum the Low Saxon Wikipedia has to cover now.
> >
> > When I first read the request for a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia I
>considered it a little far-fetched myself. But it's a matter of fact that
>we can't expect people from the Netherlands to adapt to the "German"
>lexicon and way of spelling used in nds if they want to contribute.
>Accordingly, any "Dutch" orthography and loan words like "pagina" or
>"kreeren" would simply appear strange and "foreign" to anyone living in
>Germany.
> >
> > So I've come to the conclusion that while it might appear an
>inappropriate solution from a scholarly (or ivory tower?) perspective to
>set up a separate Wikipedia for Low Saxon in the Netherlands, it is a very
>workable solution from a real world perspective.
>
>I really do not think that this is the solution.
Will you quit? You really don't realise this is an attempt to quit this
pointless discussion? Boris (was it him? I forgot) tried to come up with a
consesnus and you are - again - going counter to him.
Wouter
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:50:13 +0200
From: Boris Lohnzweiger
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch-Low Saxon test-mainpage
To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org
Message-ID: <1278463972(a)web.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Dear Wouter,
I can't help but disagree. In my opinion, using Proto-Indo-European for the new Wikipedia is the only viable option. Additional benefit: we could finally close many redundant editions of Wikipedia like en:, fr:, es: ....
Boris
wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 06.07.05 23:41:51:
I like this thread and it's logical conclusion - eliminating those languages that have gotten too big for their own boots and returning to the fundamentals.
In the case of all italic peoples, it would mean abandoning Italian - which represents the esparanto of the Italian peninsula of the middle ages - and returning to the first true literary form of the vulgar italic idioms - which we all know is SICILIAN!!
Un populu mittitilu a catina
Spugghiatilu
Atttupatici a vucca,
E` ancora libiru.
Livatici u travagghiu
U passaportu
A tavula unni mancia
U lettu unni dormi,
E` ancora libiru.
Un populu
Diventa poviru e servu,
Quannu ci arrobbanu la lingua
Addutata di patri:
E` persu di sempri.
Diventa poviru e servu
Quannu li paroli nun figghianu paroli
E si mancianu tra d'iddi...
I. Buttitta
Surely no one would classify the above as being POV, would they?
Salutamu - pippu d'angelo, canberra
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi, antispam, antivirus, POP3
Dear Wouter,
I can't help but disagree. In my opinion, using Proto-Indo-European for the new Wikipedia is the only viable option. Additional benefit: we could finally close many redundant editions of Wikipedia like en:, fr:, es: ....
Boris
wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 06.07.05 23:41:51:
Dear fellow list subscribers,
After a few very nasty e-mails, overseeing the battle field, I cannot
conclude but that no-one will change his view by someone else's arguments.
Therefor we should not bother to meet inbetween, but rather on neutral
ground: let us return to where it all begun. We can eliminate both most
spelling and most dialectical differences by... returning to Old Saxon. This
strong sonorous language will unite the fierce but noble people of the
Saxons which have been suppressed by Francs for far too long.
Latad uns farenigan undar thia sprakô, thia lang lidan ena was. Îs, Sachson,
siad fardelad thur Frankon ewan lang, enda thur hart farenigadat duvoliskit
werk wîs nu siad fardelid tot op tha bena. Ni langar sallad sî uns
undardrukan: Vî, dat adelt folk, gad wêrum nah unsaron brunnon en herstellad
allat hwat so lang fargetan, farnederad enda undardrukad is. Lang livad
Sachson, lang liva Sachsa sprako. Enda nu, makad ena nija Wikipedia for
unsara gedachta utwerkon konnon!
Iar bestar friond Wouter.
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