also approached for this experiment, but we know what happens when bot-generated articles are made: the community is overwhelmed. Out of

fear, we declined to participate. One of the concerns some editors in the Philippines have (and these are sentiments I share) is that these two Wikipedias turn us into a laughingstock, willing to increase article numbers at any cost. At one point, the Cebuano Wikipedia was described as a Wikipedia of French communes, not content relevant to Cebu or Cebuanos. I don’t think we’d like that with other Wikipedias in the Philippines or elsewhere. Regards, Josh > Wiadomość napisana przez WereSpielChequers <

> that this will vary by language depending on such variables as the

of > PC users to smartphone users, and the ease with which editors can

> the necessary character sets. > > We have long known that bot creation of stubs that are of interest to > speakers of a language is a way to recruit readers, and that some

> become editors. What I think we don't yet know is the maximum growth

> decade we could have pedias that look very dated, for example various > record holders whose articles in other languages show their records

<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;>

321-7582 Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor http://about.me/josh.lim <http://about.me/josh.lim> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;>

These are fascinating experiments, I hope that the Waray-waray and

communities will at some point report back to the wider community as to

that a wiki community can cope with. There is also a sustainability angle, though hopefully we can mitigate

by bot replacing of articles where the source has changed but they

been surpassed, and villages WereSpielChequers _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

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or reputational costs) to populating a tiny Wikipedia with next to no active editors with hundreds of thousands of bot-generated stubs. Is having stubs on all French communes in Cebuano better than having nothing in Cebuano? Probably, yes. And by increasing pageviews (which is measurable), one increases the likelihood of "organic" conversion of readers into editors (which is *still* the most effective way to make Wikipedians, albeit not the easiest to directly control). But, again as Josh says, that increase in *editorship* is yet to be attained. The Waray Wikipedia (btw, "Waray-Waray" is, it turns out, objectionable to Waray speakers, and is mildly derogatory) is still largely edited by *one* committed individual, User:JinJian[1], as the stats plainly show. Given that the bot was run *with* JinJian's consent, there can be no objection to its operation. As Milos suggests, there seems to be an emotional response to those Wikipedias appearing in the top 10 view. This should be divorced from those communities' sovereign decisions to run or not run the bot. If the top 10 inclusion truly bothers people, and there's a strong consensus that Wikipedias largely populated by bot-generated stubs "should" not be included, a discussion could be had on what this view *should* mean, precisely, if not plainly the top 10 Wikipedias by article count. And whatever refined definition is agreed upon (e.g. thresholds like a minimum number of active editors, or some formula involving the "article depth" figure, or whatever) can then be made the basis for the list, or indeed, for a different list, that would be more satisfying for those who are displeased with being "under" these Wikipedias on the list. A. [1] http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaWAR.htm#wikipedians On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Josh Lim &lt;jamesjoshualim(a)yahoo.com&gt; wrote: I can probably speak for those communities. On the whole, the logic > behind the Lsjbot experiment was simple: build it and they will come. > > So far though, this hasn’t happened. We from the Tagalog Wikipedia were > also approached for this experiment, but we know what happens when > bot-generated articles are made: the community is overwhelmed. Out of > that > fear, we declined to participate. > > One of the concerns some editors in the Philippines have (and these are > sentiments I share) is that these two Wikipedias turn us into a > laughingstock, willing to increase article numbers at any cost. At one > point, the Cebuano Wikipedia was described as a Wikipedia of French > communes, not content relevant to Cebu or Cebuanos. I don’t think we’d > like that with other Wikipedias in the Philippines or elsewhere. > > Regards, > > Josh > > Wiadomość napisana przez WereSpielChequers < > werespielchequers(a)gmail.com&gt; > w dniu 6 lip 2015, o godz. 04:52: > >> These are fascinating experiments, I hope that the Waray-waray and >> > Cebuano > >> communities will at some point report back to the wider community as to >> > how > >> this worked out. My fear is that too fast a growth rate could overwhelm >> whatever community we have in those languages leading to burn out of >> existing editors dealing with too many newbies at once, my suspicion is >> that this will vary by language depending on such variables as the >> > ratio > of > >> PC users to smartphone users, and the ease with which editors can >> > access > the necessary character sets. >> We have long known that bot creation of stubs that are of interest to >> speakers of a language is a way to recruit readers, and that some >> > readers > become editors. What I think we don't yet know is the maximum growth > rate > that a wiki community can cope with. >> There is also a sustainability angle, though hopefully we can mitigate >> > that > >> by bot replacing of articles where the source has changed but they >> > haven't > >> been edited on the Cebuano or Waray-waray Wikipedias. Otherwise within >> > a > decade we could have pedias that look very dated, for example various >> record holders whose articles in other languages show their records >> > have > been surpassed, and villages >> WereSpielChequers >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > >> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM > Bachelor of Arts in Political Science > Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University > Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines > > jamesjoshualim(a)yahoo.com <mailto:jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com> | +63 (915) > 321-7582 > Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor > http://about.me/josh.lim <http://about.me/josh.lim> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > -- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________

What gives you the right to be judgemental how they act on their version? Is that your idea of the movement values and vision, to talk badly of other efforts? and I know for a fact they did not to this to get into this list you are upset of. It is untrue when you state "like this which have inflated article counts" And I also know as a fact they are very happy with this effort because it has energized their small community. You talk of big increased I think of how many communities of this size that implodes which is a more common scenario. As I have already stated I have no problem that you (and others) have another view of the benefits of botgenrated arciels. But please be supportive to the very small communities, who do their best to survive and grow Anders Craig Franklin skrev den 2015-07-07 12:21: > There is already a consensus on enwiki (please, hold your rotten tomatoes) > that projects like this which have inflated article counts due to > extensive > botting rather than through having a lively community not be included on > the main page. I think a lot of the comments here about a huge article > count attracting communities to curate that content are somewhat > disingenous, it seems that despite having lots of articles there is only > one active user on Waray Wikipedia, who is responsible for more than 99% > of > total edits. As Milos has alluded to, "number of articles" is a poor > metric for understanding how useful a particular project is to speakers of > that language. > > Speaking here as a speaker of a minority language myself, I understand the > temptation of quickly creating lots of articles to have some sort of > demonstrable impact, and I believe there is a place for some bot > generation > of articles on any project. But after hitting "Random" a few times on > Waray, and seeing what came back, I'm not really sure how this is a more > useful resource for speakers of the language than just going into Wikidata > with the interface set to Waray. I believe the time honoured, if slower > way of creating a Wikipedia, lovingly handcrafting it article by article, > is far more likely to lead to a positive impact for people. > > Cheers, > Craig > > > > On 7 July 2015 at 07:55, Asaf Bartov &lt;abartov(a)wikimedia.org <mailto:abartov@wikimedia.org>> wrote: > > Indeed, as Josh points out, there are also costs (even if only perceived >> or >> reputational costs) to populating a tiny Wikipedia with next to no active >> editors with hundreds of thousands of bot-generated stubs. Is having >> stubs >> on all French communes in Cebuano better than having nothing in Cebuano? >> Probably, yes. And by increasing pageviews (which is measurable), one >> increases the likelihood of "organic" conversion of readers into editors >> (which is *still* the most effective way to make Wikipedians, albeit not >> the easiest to directly control). >> >> But, again as Josh says, that increase in *editorship* is yet to be >> attained. The Waray Wikipedia (btw, "Waray-Waray" is, it turns out, >> objectionable to Waray speakers, and is mildly derogatory) is still >> largely >> edited by *one* committed individual, User:JinJian[1], as the stats >> plainly >> show. Given that the bot was run *with* JinJian's consent, there can be >> no >> objection to its operation. >> >> As Milos suggests, there seems to be an emotional response to those >> Wikipedias appearing in the top 10 view. This should be divorced from >> those communities' sovereign decisions to run or not run the bot. If the >> top 10 inclusion truly bothers people, and there's a strong consensus >> that >> Wikipedias largely populated by bot-generated stubs "should" not be >> included, a discussion could be had on what this view *should* mean, >> precisely, if not plainly the top 10 Wikipedias by article count. And >> whatever refined definition is agreed upon (e.g. thresholds like a >> minimum >> number of active editors, or some formula involving the "article depth" >> figure, or whatever) can then be made the basis for the list, or indeed, >> for a different list, that would be more satisfying for those who are >> displeased with being "under" these Wikipedias on the list. >> >> A. >> >> [1] http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaWAR.htm#wikipedians <http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaWAR.htm#wikipedians> >> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Josh Lim &lt;jamesjoshualim(a)yahoo.com <mailto:jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com>> >> wrote: >> >> I can probably speak for those communities. On the whole, the logic >>> behind the Lsjbot experiment was simple: build it and they will come. >>> >>> So far though, this hasn’t happened. We from the Tagalog Wikipedia were >>> also approached for this experiment, but we know what happens when >>> bot-generated articles are made: the community is overwhelmed. Out of >>> >> that >> >>> fear, we declined to participate. >>> >>> One of the concerns some editors in the Philippines have (and these are >>> sentiments I share) is that these two Wikipedias turn us into a >>> laughingstock, willing to increase article numbers at any cost. At one >>> point, the Cebuano Wikipedia was described as a Wikipedia of French >>> communes, not content relevant to Cebu or Cebuanos. I don’t think we’d >>> like that with other Wikipedias in the Philippines or elsewhere. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Josh >>> >>> Wiadomość napisana przez WereSpielChequers < >>> werespielchequers(a)gmail.com <mailto:werespielchequers@gmail.com>> >>> w dniu 6 lip 2015, o godz. 04:52: >>> >>>> These are fascinating experiments, I hope that the Waray-waray and >>>> >>> Cebuano >>> >>>> communities will at some point report back to the wider community as to >>>> >>> how >>> >>>> this worked out. My fear is that too fast a growth rate could overwhelm >>>> whatever community we have in those languages leading to burn out of >>>> existing editors dealing with too many newbies at once, my suspicion is >>>> that this will vary by language depending on such variables as the >>>> >>> ratio >>> of >>> >>>> PC users to smartphone users, and the ease with which editors can >>>> >>> access >>> the necessary character sets. >>>> We have long known that bot creation of stubs that are of interest to >>>> speakers of a language is a way to recruit readers, and that some >>>> >>> readers >>> become editors. What I think we don't yet know is the maximum growth >>> rate >>> that a wiki community can cope with. >>>> There is also a sustainability angle, though hopefully we can mitigate >>>> >>> that >>> >>>> by bot replacing of articles where the source has changed but they >>>> >>> haven't >>> >>>> been edited on the Cebuano or Waray-waray Wikipedias. Otherwise within >>>> >>> a >>> decade we could have pedias that look very dated, for example various >>>> record holders whose articles in other languages show their records >>>> >>> have >>> been surpassed, and villages >>>> WereSpielChequers >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> >>> >>>> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >>> >>> JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM >>> Bachelor of Arts in Political Science >>> Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University >>> Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines >>> >>> jamesjoshualim(a)yahoo.com <mailto:jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com> | +63 (915) >>> 321-7582 >>> Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor >>> http://about.me/josh.lim <http://about.me/josh.lim> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >>> >>> >> -- >> Asaf Bartov >> Wikimedia Foundation <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org/>> >> >> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the >> sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! >> https://donate.wikimedia.org <https://donate.wikimedia.org/> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> >> _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>