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Invitation to WMF November 2013...

Romaine Wiki

3 Dec 2013 3 Dec '13

5:12 p.m.

Somehow, I don't know how we get that happen, almost every time we use live communication to communicate about projects to enrich and improve the Wikimedia projects, something goes wrong in the communication. Besides the usual problems of connecting to the internet, a lot of software issues occur, then we have a microphone of someone that doesn't work in only one software programme, while it works in others, or we don't get sound out of the programme, programmes that need an account but refuse you to sign up. From Google Hangout, Skype to Mumble, all have issues. I think it would be lovely to have a piece of software maybe hosted by WMF that works for everyone to enable everyone to participate. Currently users are excluded because of insufficient software and it takes too much time to get everything working. The key of the Wikimedia projects is that everyone can participate, besides when it comes to live communication. Greetings, Romaine

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David Cuenca

3 Dec 3 Dec

5:39 p.m.

Maybe try this one? http://videoconf.wikimedia.ch/ Cheers, Micru On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine_wiki(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

...

-- Etiamsi omnes, ego non

Jan Ainali

5:48 p.m.

We just did. Too many were not able to log in. *Med vänliga hälsningar,Jan Ainali* Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige <http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida> 0729 - 67 29 48 2013/12/3 David Cuenca <dacuetu(a)gmail.com>

...

Maybe try this one? http://videoconf.wikimedia.ch/ Cheers, Micru On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine_wiki(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

Somehow, I don't know how we get that happen, almost every time we use live communication to communicate about projects to enrich and improve

the

Wikimedia projects, something goes wrong in the communication. Besides

the

usual problems of connecting to the internet, a lot of software issues occur, then we have a microphone of someone that doesn't work in only one software programme, while it works in others, or we don't get sound out

the programme, programmes that need an account but refuse you to sign up. From Google Hangout, Skype to Mumble, all have issues. I think it would be lovely to have a piece of software maybe hosted by

WMF

that works for everyone to enable everyone to participate. Currently

users

are excluded because of insufficient software and it takes too much time

get everything working. The key of the Wikimedia projects is that

everyone

can participate, besides when it comes to live communication. Greetings, Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

-- Etiamsi omnes, ego non _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

David Cuenca

9:42 p.m.

Jan, please report the issues that you had to the maintainer of the instance or directly to: http://bigbluebutton.org/ Cheers, Micru On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Jan Ainali <jan.ainali(a)wikimedia.se> wrote:

...

We just did. Too many were not able to log in. *Med vänliga hälsningar,Jan Ainali* Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige <http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida

0729 - 67 29 48 2013/12/3 David Cuenca <dacuetu(a)gmail.com> > Maybe try this one? > http://videoconf.wikimedia.ch/

> Cheers, > Micru

> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine_wiki(a)yahoo.com> > wrote:

> > Somehow, I don't know how we get that happen, almost every time we use > > live communication to communicate about projects to enrich and improve > the > > Wikimedia projects, something goes wrong in the communication. Besides > the > > usual problems of connecting to the internet, a lot of software issues > > occur, then we have a microphone of someone that doesn't work in only one

software programme, while it works in others, or we don't get sound out

of > the programme, programmes that need an account but refuse you to sign

up. > > From Google Hangout, Skype to Mumble, all have issues. >

> > I think it would be lovely to have a piece of software maybe hosted by > WMF > > that works for everyone to enable everyone to participate. Currently > users > > are excluded because of insufficient software and it takes too much time > to > > get everything working. The key of the Wikimedia projects is that > everyone > > can participate, besides when it comes to live communication. >

> > Greetings, > > Romaine >

> > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

> -- > Etiamsi omnes, ego non > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

-- Etiamsi omnes, ego non

Michael Peel

9:51 p.m.

Could there be a page on meta that documents this tool and its capabilities / limitations / ways to report issues, please? Thanks, Mike On 3 Dec 2013, at 21:42, David Cuenca <dacuetu(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

We just did. Too many were not able to log in. *Med vänliga hälsningar,Jan Ainali* Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige <http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida

0729 - 67 29 48 2013/12/3 David Cuenca <dacuetu(a)gmail.com> > Maybe try this one? > http://videoconf.wikimedia.ch/

> Cheers, > Micru

> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine_wiki(a)yahoo.com> > wrote:

>> Somehow, I don't know how we get that happen, almost every time we use >> live communication to communicate about projects to enrich and improve > the >> Wikimedia projects, something goes wrong in the communication. Besides > the >> usual problems of connecting to the internet, a lot of software issues >> occur, then we have a microphone of someone that doesn't work in only one

software programme, while it works in others, or we don't get sound out

of > the programme, programmes that need an account but refuse you to sign

up. >> From Google Hangout, Skype to Mumble, all have issues. >

>> I think it would be lovely to have a piece of software maybe hosted by > WMF >> that works for everyone to enable everyone to participate. Currently > users >> are excluded because of insufficient software and it takes too much time > to >> get everything working. The key of the Wikimedia projects is that > everyone >> can participate, besides when it comes to live communication. >

>> Greetings, >> Romaine >

>> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list >> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Tilman Bayer

10:33 p.m.

Note that this solution is still based on proprietary software, in that it requires users to install a Flash plugin. It would be interesting to learn about the experiences of Wikimedia France, who has been replacing Skype with the entirely free Mumble, according to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FLOSS-Exchange . On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 1:42 PM, David Cuenca <dacuetu(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

We just did. Too many were not able to log in. *Med vänliga hälsningar,Jan Ainali* Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige <

http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida

0729 - 67 29 48 2013/12/3 David Cuenca <dacuetu(a)gmail.com> > Maybe try this one? > http://videoconf.wikimedia.ch/

> Cheers, > Micru

> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine_wiki(a)yahoo.com> > wrote:

> > Somehow, I don't know how we get that happen, almost every time we

use

> > live communication to communicate about projects to enrich and

improve

> the > > Wikimedia projects, something goes wrong in the communication.

Besides

> the > > usual problems of connecting to the internet, a lot of software

issues

> occur, then we have a microphone of someone that doesn't work in only

one > > software programme, while it works in others, or we don't get sound

out

of > the programme, programmes that need an account but refuse you to sign

up. > > From Google Hangout, Skype to Mumble, all have issues. > > > > I think it would be lovely to have a piece of software maybe hosted

WMF

that works for everyone to enable everyone to participate. Currently

users > are excluded because of insufficient software and it takes too much

time > to > > get everything working. The key of the Wikimedia projects is that > everyone > > can participate, besides when it comes to live communication. > > > > > > Greetings, > > Romaine > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

-- Tilman Bayer Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications) Wikimedia Foundation IRC (Freenode): HaeB

Lodewijk

4 Dec 4 Dec

12:36 p.m.

We also tried to use mumble at WLM-international, but it seems that it uses a different port, whcih cannot be used by everyone. Especially if working from multiple timezones, some people might call in from a company or university network, which might have restrictions. Otherwise, I liked the tool very much. Lodewijk 2013/12/3 Tilman Bayer <tbayer(a)wikimedia.org>

...

We just did. Too many were not able to log in. *Med vänliga hälsningar,Jan Ainali* Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige <

http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida

0729 - 67 29 48 2013/12/3 David Cuenca <dacuetu(a)gmail.com> > Maybe try this one? > http://videoconf.wikimedia.ch/

> Cheers, > Micru

> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine_wiki(a)yahoo.com

> wrote: > > > Somehow, I don't know how we get that happen, almost every time we

use

> > live communication to communicate about projects to enrich and

improve

> the > > Wikimedia projects, something goes wrong in the communication.

Besides

> the > > usual problems of connecting to the internet, a lot of software

issues > > > occur, then we have a microphone of someone that doesn't work in

only

one > > software programme, while it works in others, or we don't get sound

out > > of > > > the programme, programmes that need an account but refuse you to

sign

up. > > From Google Hangout, Skype to Mumble, all have issues. > > > > I think it would be lovely to have a piece of software maybe hosted

by > > WMF > > > that works for everyone to enable everyone to participate.

Currently

users > are excluded because of insufficient software and it takes too much

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org

?subject=unsubscribe>

> > > > > > > > > > -- > > Etiamsi omnes, ego non > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

-- Tilman Bayer Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications) Wikimedia Foundation IRC (Freenode): HaeB _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Manuel Schneider

1:57 p.m.

Am 03.12.2013 23:33, schrieb Tilman Bayer:

...

Note that this solution is still based on proprietary software, in that it requires users to install a Flash plugin.

well, BigBlueButton is completely open source, including the flash applets used. While I am not in favour of Flash there is currently no other way to do this if you want to provide a solution when nobody should need to install a special software, register an account somewhere. Note that there are also free flash implementation that are reported to work with BigBlueButton. The guys are currently working on a HTML 5 client. I am really looking forward to see that in action. But I guess it will take another while until it will be usable.

...

It would be interesting to learn about the experiences of Wikimedia France, who has been replacing Skype with the entirely free Mumble, according to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FLOSS-Exchange .

There is always a trade-off to make - Flash vs. client special installation needed, FOSS vs. proprietary solution. If there would be a solution which could avoid those trade-offs, we would have used it. We use BBB regularly for our staff and board meetings, weekly meetings with 4 - 5 participants. Works great. The biggest issues are people not having connected their mic or adjusted their mixer properly or not using a headset at all, causing background noises and echos. But no solution, neither Skype nor Mumble, can fix that. /Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

Tilman Bayer

7:15 p.m.

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 5:57 AM, Manuel Schneider <manuel.schneider(a)wikimedia.ch> wrote: ...

...

We use BBB regularly for our staff and board meetings, weekly meetings with 4 - 5 participants. Works great. The biggest issues are people not having connected their mic or adjusted their mixer properly or not using a headset at all, causing background noises and echos. But no solution, neither Skype nor Mumble, can fix that.

Many solutions fix that using echo cancellation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videoconferencing#Echo_cancellation ). According to http://blogs.gnome.org/uraeus/2012/10/15/the-long-journey-towards-good-free… , the lack of good free echo cancellation code used to be the most critical problem for free videoconferencing software. ("good echo cancellation .... is required in order to avoid having an ugly echo effect when trying to use your laptop built-in speakers and microphone for a call. So people have been forced to use a headset to make things work reasonably well. This was a quite hard issue to solve as there was neither any great open source code available which implemented echo cancellation or a good way to hook it into the system.") That post goes on to say that the issue was mitigated last year when "Google ended up releasing a quite good echo cancellation algorithm as part of their WebRTC effort." I don't know if Mumble or BBB have since made use of that, though. -- Tilman Bayer Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications) Wikimedia Foundation IRC (Freenode): HaeB

Jean-Frédéric

5 Dec 5 Dec

10:13 a.m.

Hi, 2013/12/4 Manuel Schneider <manuel.schneider(a)wikimedia.ch>

...

Am 03.12.2013 23:33, schrieb Tilman Bayer:

Note that this solution is still based on proprietary software, in that

requires users to install a Flash plugin.

well, BigBlueButton is completely open source, including the flash applets used.

Dimitar Parvanov Dimitrov

10:21 a.m.

Hi, I will try today, for the first time, Palava.tv. Don't know if it's any good, but it is run by a German non-for profit that rely on donations only (thus similar to our sustainability model). If it works well enough it might be worth keeping on one's shortlist. Will let you know. Dimi 2013/12/5 Jean-Frédéric <jeanfrederic.wiki(a)gmail.com>

...

Hi, 2013/12/4 Manuel Schneider <manuel.schneider(a)wikimedia.ch>

Am 03.12.2013 23:33, schrieb Tilman Bayer: > > Note that this solution is still based on proprietary software, in

that

requires users to install a Flash plugin.

well, BigBlueButton is completely open source, including the flash applets used.

Except that it appears the required Flash version is not available under Linux, except if using the proprietary Chrome. Back then in April I extensively tested BBB - the found issues were reported to the developers. <https://code.google.com/p/bigbluebutton/issues/detail?id=1479> <https://code.google.com/p/bigbluebutton/issues/detail?id=1243> These issues will not be fixed, given the current work done with HTML5 + WebRTC. -- Jean-Frédéric _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Manuel Schneider

7:33 p.m.

Hi, Am 05.12.2013 11:13, schrieb Jean-Frédéric:

...

Except that it appears the required Flash version is not available under Linux, except if using the proprietary Chrome.

I only own Linux computers and BBB works perfectly here in Firefox 17.0.9 with Adobe Flash 11,2,202,310, just the standard packages of my distribution. On Ubuntu there is a bug but there is also a workaround: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/adobe-flashplugin/+bug/865672

...

Back then in April I extensively tested BBB - the found issues were reported to the developers. <https://code.google.com/p/bigbluebutton/issues/detail?id=1479> <https://code.google.com/p/bigbluebutton/issues/detail?id=1243>

Great, that is making the application better, thanks! Although I have to state again that issue 1479 might just be a theoretical one, as BBB does indeed work with FlashPlayer 11.2.

...

These issues will not be fixed, given the current work done with HTML5 + WebRTC.

HTML5 and WebRTC will actually be a superior solution to the whole problem, I am looking forward to it. Anyway I hope that the Flash interface will be continued as a fallback as it might take another two years until everyone has a HTML5 browser with WebRTC. /Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

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participants (9)

David Cuenca
Dimitar Parvanov Dimitrov
Jan Ainali
Jean-Frédéric
Lodewijk
Manuel Schneider
Michael Peel
Romaine Wiki
Tilman Bayer