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[Foundation-l] New project proposal: Soviet Repressions Memorial

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Kurt Maxwell Weber

24 Dec 2008 24 Dec '08

5:07 a.m.

I have submitted a new project proposal, at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Victims_of_Soviet_Repressions_Memorial -- Kurt Weber http://blog.kurtweber.us <kmw(a)kurtweber.us>

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Delirium

24 Dec 24 Dec

10:10 a.m.

Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:

I have submitted a new project proposal, at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Victims_of_Soviet_Repressions_Memorial

Isn't this the sort of thing we've been in the business of slowly getting out of, with the move offsite of the September 11 memorial wiki? The consensus from that move seemed to be that notable victims of the September 11 attacks get an article on the regular encyclopedia projects (what constitutes "notable" being a different debate), and non-notable ones are either redirects to a larger article discussing them or not there at all, but that in either case we shouldn't be in the business of hosting victim memorials. -Mark

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Kurt Maxwell Weber

4:42 p.m.

On Wednesday 24 December 2008 03:10, Delirium wrote:

Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:

I have submitted a new project proposal, at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Victims_of_Soviet_Repressions_Memorial

Isn't this the sort of thing we've been in the business of slowly getting out of, with the move offsite of the September 11 memorial wiki? The consensus from that move seemed to be that notable victims of the September 11 attacks get an article on the regular encyclopedia projects (what constitutes "notable" being a different debate), and non-notable ones are either redirects to a larger article discussing them or not there at all, but that in either case we shouldn't be in the business of hosting victim memorials.

In the proposal, I make my case as to how this is essential to fulfilling the mission of the Wikimedia Foundation. -- Kurt Weber http://blog.kurtweber.us <kmw(a)kurtweber.us>

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Michael Bimmler

5:06 p.m.

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Kurt Maxwell Weber <kmw(a)outwardhosting.com> wrote:

On Wednesday 24 December 2008 03:10, Delirium wrote:

Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:

I have submitted a new project proposal, at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Victims_of_Soviet_Repressions_Memorial

Isn't this the sort of thing we've been in the business of slowly getting out of, with the move offsite of the September 11 memorial wiki? The consensus from that move seemed to be that notable victims of the September 11 attacks get an article on the regular encyclopedia projects (what constitutes "notable" being a different debate), and non-notable ones are either redirects to a larger article discussing them or not there at all, but that in either case we shouldn't be in the business of hosting victim memorials.

In the proposal, I make my case as to how this is essential to fulfilling the mission of the Wikimedia Foundation.

I'm sorry, but I stopped reading at "Understanding the destructive effects of the most vile, most tyrannical, most despotic, most murderous, and most capricious regime in human history necessitates putting a "human face" on its victims." A project which is motivated in such a way cannot possibly be anything else than biased...and indeed, the very concept of memorials is biased: Why should we have a memorial of the victims of Soviet Repression, when we don't have a memorial of Nazi victims, victims of the Armenian Genocide, victim of the Rwandan Genocide, victims of various repression regimes in South-East Asia and China, victims in Darfur, Chad, the Central African Republic etc. etc. No one can sensibly suggest that we can have memorial sites for every "repression" (in lack of a better word) in history and thus, we had better none, in my opinion. (Yes, in other cases I argued and would argue that it is better to have "something" than "nothing", but in this case, I'm afraid I am not convinced of the merits of the proposal at all and of the propriety of the motives behind it) MIchael -- Michael Bimmler mbimmler(a)gmail.com

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David Gerard

6:02 p.m.

2008/12/24 Michael Bimmler <mbimmler(a)gmail.com>om>:

A project which is motivated in such a way cannot possibly be anything else than biased...and indeed, the very concept of memorials is biased: Why should we have a memorial of the victims of Soviet Repression, when we don't have a memorial of Nazi victims, victims of the Armenian Genocide, victim of the Rwandan Genocide, victims of various repression regimes in South-East Asia and China, victims in Darfur, Chad, the Central African Republic etc. etc. No one can sensibly suggest that we can have memorial sites for every "repression" (in lack of a better word) in history and thus, we had better none, in my opinion. (Yes, in other cases I argued and would argue that it is better to have "something" than "nothing", but in this case, I'm afraid I am not convinced of the merits of the proposal at all and of the propriety of the motives behind it)

Yes. However, it could be a valuable wiki to create privately. Generic hosting is (a) really cheap (b) often includes MediaWiki out the box. The wiki is unlikely to be vastly overloaded, so cheap hosting would do for a start. See http://www.sep11memories.org/wiki/In_Memoriam for a memorial project for victims of the World Trade Center attack, for example. Although started with a strong POV, such a project could nevertheless accumulate material of high quality historical and scholarly interest. - d.

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Kurt Maxwell Weber

6:22 p.m.

On Wednesday 24 December 2008 11:02, David Gerard wrote:

Yes. However, it could be a valuable wiki to create privately. Generic hosting is (a) really cheap (b) often includes MediaWiki out the box. The wiki is unlikely to be vastly overloaded, so cheap hosting would do for a start. See http://www.sep11memories.org/wiki/In_Memoriam for a memorial project for victims of the World Trade Center attack, for example. Although started with a strong POV, such a project could nevertheless accumulate material of high quality historical and scholarly interest.

I still don't see how it's outside the WMF's scope, nor do I see how presenting a strong POV is necessarily bad. The WMF's mission is essentially educational, correct? And I submit that to be truly educated about such an event as this, one needs to see perhaps a more emotional presentation, to truly understand what it actually did to people. One would not say that the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., is non-educational, though it presents a strong POV and is focused more on presenting the human effects of the Holocaust than simple factual information. This is basically the same thing. It fulfills an essential part of the Foundation's educational mission that to now has been neglected. -- Kurt Weber http://blog.kurtweber.us <kmw(a)kurtweber.us>

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Ray Saintonge

25 Dec 25 Dec

10:30 a.m.

Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:

On Wednesday 24 December 2008 11:02, David Gerard wrote:

Yes. However, it could be a valuable wiki to create privately. Generic hosting is (a) really cheap (b) often includes MediaWiki out the box. The wiki is unlikely to be vastly overloaded, so cheap hosting would do for a start. See http://www.sep11memories.org/wiki/In_Memoriam for a memorial project for victims of the World Trade Center attack, for example. Although started with a strong POV, such a project could nevertheless accumulate material of high quality historical and scholarly interest.

I still don't see how it's outside the WMF's scope, nor do I see how presenting a strong POV is necessarily bad. The WMF's mission is essentially educational, correct? And I submit that to be truly educated about such an event as this, one needs to see perhaps a more emotional presentation, to truly understand what it actually did to people.

One doesn't become truly educated when someone is playing games with one's emotions. That just breeds true believers and more victims of patriotic folly. Stalin died in 1953, and while there might have been some justification for such a project while he was still in power, now it is nothing more than picking at old scabs to see if they will bleed. What Stalin did cannot be undone, but understanding the importance of those events in world history is not helped by dwelling on the minutiae of individual tragedy. Global tragedies are greater than the sum of these isolated events, and distance from them provides us with the opportunity for retrospective and dispassionate analysis.

One would not say that the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., is non-educational, though it presents a strong POV and is focused more on presenting the human effects of the Holocaust than simple factual information. This is basically the same thing. It fulfills an essential part of the Foundation's educational mission that to now has been neglected.

The parallel to a Holocaust Museum in these circumstances would be a museum for Stalin's victims. Perhaps you should be trying to establish such a museum. A person entering the Holocaust Museum knows what bias to expect, as would a visitor to your museum. It's not our job to be promoting those biases. Ec

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Fred Bauder

3:40 p.m.

Stalin died in 1953, and while there might have been some justification for such a project while he was still in power, now it is nothing more than picking at old scabs to see if they will bleed. What Stalin did cannot be undone, but understanding the importance of those events in world history is not helped by dwelling on the minutiae of individual tragedy.

A little study of the details might convince you otherwise. Most of those killed were working people, many revolutionaries.

A person entering the Holocaust Museum knows what bias to expect, as would a visitor to your museum. It's not our job to be promoting those biases. Ec

Nor to promote the bias that nothing happened. Fred

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Kurt Maxwell Weber

11:48 p.m.

On Thursday 25 December 2008 03:30, Ray Saintonge wrote:

One doesn't become truly educated when someone is playing games with one's emotions. That just breeds true believers and more victims of patriotic folly. Stalin died in 1953, and while there might have been some justification for such a project while he was still in power, now it is nothing more than picking at old scabs to see if they will bleed.

Funny, that's exactly what Khrushchev used to justify repressing those who tried to write about the Stalinist repressions.

What Stalin did cannot be undone, but understanding the importance of those events in world history is not helped by dwelling on the minutiae of individual tragedy.

The importance of those events extends way beyond geopolitics; their importance IS the many millions of individual tragedies. -- Kurt Weber http://blog.kurtweber.us <kmw(a)kurtweber.us>

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Fred Bauder

11:55 p.m.

On Thursday 25 December 2008 03:30, Ray Saintonge wrote:

One doesn't become truly educated when someone is playing games with one's emotions. That just breeds true believers and more victims of patriotic folly. Stalin died in 1953, and while there might have been some justification for such a project while he was still in power, now it is nothing more than picking at old scabs to see if they will bleed.

Funny, that's exactly what Khrushchev used to justify repressing those who tried to write about the Stalinist repressions.

What Stalin did cannot be undone, but understanding the importance of those events in world history is not helped by dwelling on the minutiae of individual tragedy.

The importance of those events extends way beyond geopolitics; their importance IS the many millions of individual tragedies. -- Kurt Weber

Yes, it's the MASS in mass murder. Fred

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mbimmler＠gmail.com

24 Dec 24 Dec

6:23 p.m.

On 12/24/08, David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com> wrote:

2008/12/24 Michael Bimmler <mbimmler(a)gmail.com>om>:

A project which is motivated in such a way cannot possibly be anything else than biased...and indeed, the very concept of memorials is biased: Why should we have a memorial of the victims of Soviet Repression, when we don't have a memorial of Nazi victims, victims of the Armenian Genocide, victim of the Rwandan Genocide, victims of various repression regimes in South-East Asia and China, victims in Darfur, Chad, the Central African Republic etc. etc. No one can sensibly suggest that we can have memorial sites for every "repression" (in lack of a better word) in history and thus, we had better none, in my opinion. (Yes, in other cases I argued and would argue that it is better to have "something" than "nothing", but in this case, I'm afraid I am not convinced of the merits of the proposal at all and of the propriety of the motives behind it)

Yes. However, it could be a valuable wiki to create privately. Generic hosting is (a) really cheap (b) often includes MediaWiki out the box. The wiki is unlikely to be vastly overloaded, so cheap hosting would do for a start. See http://www.sep11memories.org/wiki/In_Memoriam for a memorial project for victims of the World Trade Center attack, for example. Although started with a strong POV, such a project could nevertheless accumulate material of high quality historical and scholarly interest.

Oh, surely. There are also genuine academic projects 'off-wiki' that have such aims - it just doesn't fit with my personal vision of the Wikimedia Foundation.

- d. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

-- Michael Bimmler mbimmler(a)gmail.com

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Fred Bauder

11:12 p.m.

2008/12/24 Michael Bimmler <mbimmler(a)gmail.com>om>:

A project which is motivated in such a way cannot possibly be anything else than biased...and indeed, the very concept of memorials is biased: Why should we have a memorial of the victims of Soviet Repression, when we don't have a memorial of Nazi victims, victims of the Armenian Genocide, victim of the Rwandan Genocide, victims of various repression regimes in South-East Asia and China, victims in Darfur, Chad, the Central African Republic etc. etc. No one can sensibly suggest that we can have memorial sites for every "repression" (in lack of a better word) in history and thus, we had better none, in my opinion. (Yes, in other cases I argued and would argue that it is better to have "something" than "nothing", but in this case, I'm afraid I am not convinced of the merits of the proposal at all and of the propriety of the motives behind it)

Yes. However, it could be a valuable wiki to create privately. Generic hosting is (a) really cheap (b) often includes MediaWiki out the box. The wiki is unlikely to be vastly overloaded, so cheap hosting would do for a start. See http://www.sep11memories.org/wiki/In_Memoriam for a memorial project for victims of the World Trade Center attack, for example. Although started with a strong POV, such a project could nevertheless accumulate material of high quality historical and scholarly interest. - d.

I support this project, and don't think it should get pushed off into some obscure corner of the internet. We should host it. We should host it because we stand against totalitarian repression; and reject the position that some knowledge, knowledge of the consequences of totalitarian repression, is to be repressed and not readily available. Fred Bauder

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participants (7)

David Gerard
Delirium
Fred Bauder
Kurt Maxwell Weber
mbimmler＠gmail.com
Michael Bimmler
Ray Saintonge