Looking back at the London Conference - Wikimedia-l

Jan-Bart de Vreede

19 Feb 19 Feb

10:09 a.m.

Hey So just to add my perspective on the mail below (as one of the two board members that were present). As mentioned before the board has several big issues with the WCA where it was going (as outlined on the meta discussion page and our statement: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Chapters_Association#WMF_Boar…) We felt that our statement was needed at the time, and some good debate has taken place. If we were inconsistent in our behaviour (in the eyes of Ziko) this was simply because things increasingly seemed to be going the wrong way and views evolve over time. The discussion we had was a very useful one, and you can read a pretty accurate transcript at: http://etherpad.wikimedia.org/WCA/ (and I see that minutes are being worked on as I type this, so a formal report is likely to be announced here soon I guess) The main focus that I tried to bring across is that the people working on the Chapter Association stop focusing on process, structure, incorporation, hiring and strategy but rather focus on getting things started and trying to develop things that work and can grow. Rather than focus on membership and voting, focus on getting an exchange of knowledge, experience and skills between all the chapters (members or not). And though it might not come across right now without seeing the results, I feel that the weekend was very useful. There was a lot of energy in the room and a willingness to re-assess where the CA is, and where it needs to go (thank you for that everyone, and thank you to Fae for helping create this open environment). Public discussion on meta, along with open exchange and notes are a good start, and I am sure that a lot of things will be happening the next months. Hopefully this will grow into the potential that chapter cooperation has always had. Jan-Bart de Vreede Wikimedia Board of Trustees On Feb 19, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Ziko van Dijk <vandijk(a)wmnederland.nl> wrote:

...

Dear Council Members and everyone interested in the WCA, On 16/17th February 2013 a number of Council Members visited the London Conference I had proposed in mid January to talk about the way of the WCA and to prepare the Wikimedia Conference in Milan. We are happy that the London Conference did happen, and, in spite of the debatable WMF board statement of 5th February, that two WMF board members still agreed to join us. Because in 2012/2013 the signals from the WMF were not very consistent I tried to receive more clarity about the relationship between Foundation and Association. This was only partially successful, but I understand that the two present WMF board members were as open as it was possible within the constraints of the WMF board unity. We very much appreciated the commitment of Alice and Jan-Bart and were happy not to hear certain allegations from the board statement again. The London Conference discussed many WCA subjects collected during the last months. One of them was communication, and I am content that I could convince the participants of a major change. For someone who is interested in the WCA it has been very difficult to follow the proceedings, plans and results. When e.g. a Council Member wanted to talk to others or discuss something, he or she used one of the several mailing lists the movement has, or Meta Wiki, or private email addresses. I believe that this has been a fundamental problem with the regard to the perception of the WCA, and that the participation even from Council Members suffered also because of this kind of communication. After the election of a new Chair, the Chair of the WCA Council will issue a Bulletin, a kind of short report, with a summary of what happened recently and what are the plans for the near future. This will be put on Meta Wiki, and, naturally, discussions will centre around those Bulletins. For those who are interested it will be much easier to follow and to participate. If someone wants to support the WCA via translations, he or she can translate those Bulletins instead of a lot of messages. There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l. When we talked about the future and a possible new election of the Chair I also asked about my position. If for any reason someone believed that there should be a new election of the Deputy Chair, I wanted to hear. The participants said that that is no issue and that it is good to have continuity. The role of the Deputy Chair is to be there for the case that at some moment there is no Chair, and then the Deputy has to arrange the election. The WCA continues to exist and will make some rearrangements - it's exiting to follow the evolution. Kind regards Ziko van Dijk -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter http://wmnederland.nl/ Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht ----------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Reply

Balázs Viczián

2:56 p.m.

Hi, sorry, no offense meant, but all of you are keep saying the same things again and again. At least a dozen times I've read lines, like "don't focus on this, focus on that" or let me say WCA recruiting athough you dropped that idea about two weeks ago (really?) I'd like to help you with focusing: It wouls be lovely to see those "things" mentioned above explained as detailed as possible what is much more than that list of ideas ("tasks") you may think of right now linking here. sorry, just got a little bit annoyed reading the very same discussion for at least the fifth or sixths time and it is still not differing from the previous ones. uff Vince 2013.02.19. 23:14, "Ziko van Dijk" <vandijk(a)wmnederland.nl> ezt írta:

...

Hello, Just to keep in mind: it has been no secret, from the beginning, that the WCA planned to hire somebody. The WMF board is supported by employees too, and I guess that the WMF has a number of regulations. Enough room for views to evolve. But it sounds good to focus on getting things started instead of focusing on process, structure etc. - I will remember that when the WMF asks again report after report from the chapters' volunteers... Ziko 2013/2/19 Jan-Bart de Vreede <jdevreede(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:

Hey So just to add my perspective on the mail below (as one of the two board

members that were present).

As mentioned before the board has several big issues with the WCA where

it was going (as outlined on the meta discussion page and our statement: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Chapters_Association#WMF_Boar… )

We felt that our statement was needed at the time, and some good debate

has taken place. If we were inconsistent in our behaviour (in the eyes of Ziko) this was simply because things increasingly seemed to be going the wrong way and views evolve over time.

The discussion we had was a very useful one, and you can read a pretty

accurate transcript at: http://etherpad.wikimedia.org/WCA/ (and I see that minutes are being worked on as I type this, so a formal report is likely to be announced here soon I guess)

The main focus that I tried to bring across is that the people working on

the Chapter Association stop focusing on process, structure, incorporation, hiring and strategy but rather focus on getting things started and trying to develop things that work and can grow. Rather than focus on membership and voting, focus on getting an exchange of knowledge, experience and skills between all the chapters (members or not).

And though it might not come across right now without seeing the results,

I feel that the weekend was very useful. There was a lot of energy in the room and a willingness to re-assess where the CA is, and where it needs to go (thank you for that everyone, and thank you to Fae for helping create this open environment). Public discussion on meta, along with open exchange and notes are a good start, and I am sure that a lot of things will be happening the next months. Hopefully this will grow into the potential that chapter cooperation has always had.

Jan-Bart de Vreede Wikimedia Board of Trustees On Feb 19, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Ziko van Dijk <vandijk(a)wmnederland.nl>

wrote:

Dear Council Members and everyone interested in the WCA, On 16/17th February 2013 a number of Council Members visited the London Conference I had proposed in mid January to talk about the way of the WCA and to prepare the Wikimedia Conference in Milan. We are happy that the London Conference did happen, and, in spite of the debatable WMF board statement of 5th February, that two WMF board members still agreed to join us. Because in 2012/2013 the signals from the WMF were not very consistent I tried to receive more clarity about the relationship between Foundation and Association. This was only partially successful, but I understand that the two present WMF board members were as open as it was possible within the constraints of the WMF board unity. We very much appreciated the commitment of Alice and Jan-Bart and were happy not to hear certain allegations from the board statement again. The London Conference discussed many WCA subjects collected during the last months. One of them was communication, and I am content that I could convince the participants of a major change. For someone who is interested in the WCA it has been very difficult to follow the proceedings, plans and results. When e.g. a Council Member wanted to talk to others or discuss something, he or she used one of the several mailing lists the movement has, or Meta Wiki, or private email addresses. I believe that this has been a fundamental problem with the regard to the perception of the WCA, and that the participation even from Council Members suffered also because of this kind of communication. After the election of a new Chair, the Chair of the WCA Council will issue a Bulletin, a kind of short report, with a summary of what happened recently and what are the plans for the near future. This will be put on Meta Wiki, and, naturally, discussions will centre around those Bulletins. For those who are interested it will be much easier to follow and to participate. If someone wants to support the WCA via translations, he or she can translate those Bulletins instead of a lot of messages. There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l. When we talked about the future and a possible new election of the Chair I also asked about my position. If for any reason someone believed that there should be a new election of the Deputy Chair, I wanted to hear. The participants said that that is no issue and that it is good to have continuity. The role of the Deputy Chair is to be there for the case that at some moment there is no Chair, and then the Deputy has to arrange the election. The WCA continues to exist and will make some rearrangements - it's exiting to follow the evolution. Kind regards Ziko van Dijk -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter http://wmnederland.nl/ Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht ----------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

-- ----------------------------------------------------------- Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter http://wmnederland.nl/ Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht ----------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Reply

Fae

4:18 p.m.

On 19 February 2013 23:47, James Alexander <jamesofur(a)gmail.com> wrote: ...

...

Groups should grow naturally, they should incorporate only when necessary and get staff only when necessary, trying to push them before they are ready only makes things worse. We have been having a long standing habit within the meta movement to rush towards organizations and staff long before it's necessary, pissing away money and good will. James

I don't disagree with the sentiment. I recall the WMUK strategy weekend when the chapter board and staff all stood in the room to indicate how important to the new charity fundraising was. I was the Chair at the time, and I think I annoyed almost everyone there by being the only one standing in the middle of the room, and saying that I could do everything in our mission with a bag of crisps and money for a coffee, while almost everyone else was putting fundraising as the highest importance. Money is not in our mission statement or our values. It's a burden and a governance nightmare. I already have a track record of doing good things relying on *other people's* money, it does not have to be in my bank account in order to have institutions and others eventually agree that: * archives should be on a fully free license * governments should support open knowledge for selfish reasons * everyone should consider becoming immortal by releasing the copyright on their creations in their wills * publishers should stop worrying about being gatekeepers and become knowledge facilitators * academics should help their careers by sharing early rather than hoarding * knowledge institutions should really mean their mission for the public good, and make it happen in the real world To change everything, all we need is time, perhaps a life-time, an off-peak train ticket and maybe a cheap sandwich. With a bit of money we can do a little more, but you know, it's not the most important thing, what matters is the vision we have to share and not being let down too many times by the hierarchy we have chosen to create. Now, if you want it faster than folks like me, on our own, liberating knowledge and having enormous fun talking to one person at a time and evangelizing the bejesus out of them, we might need to talk about using some donated money in smart ways and we might need to have something more reliable and consistent than wacky volunteers like me who tend to burn out all too quickly and all too often. Cheers, Fae -- Ashley Van Haeften (Fae) faewik(a)gmail.com Chapters Association Council Chair http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCA Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae

Reply

Thehelpfulone

11:57 a.m.

On 19 February 2013 16:10, Ziko van Dijk <vandijk(a)wmnederland.nl> wrote:

...

There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.

Thanks Ziko, I'm happy to create this list for you on the Foundation servers, please follow the instructions at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists#Create_a_new_list to file a bug. I'd suggest "WCA-Announce" to match our similar announcement lists for MediaWiki, WLM, Toolserver etc and to keep it relatively short. -- Thehelpfulone http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Thehelpfulone

Reply

Jan-Bart de Vreede

12:41 p.m.

yeah, I was going to suggest the same thing, why make a different list with different membership? Jan-Bart (personally agreeing with mike's personal viewpoint… please don't take it personally) On Feb 19, 2013, at 9:09 PM, Michael Peel <michael.peel(a)wikimedia.org.uk> wrote:

...

On 19 Feb 2013, at 19:57, Thehelpfulone <thehelpfulonewiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On 19 February 2013 16:10, Ziko van Dijk <vandijk(a)wmnederland.nl> wrote:

There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.

Thanks Ziko, I'm happy to create this list for you on the Foundation servers, please follow the instructions at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists#Create_a_new_list to file a bug. I'd suggest "WCA-Announce" to match our similar announcement lists for MediaWiki, WLM, Toolserver etc and to keep it relatively short.

Is there a reason why wikimediaannounce-l can't be used here? Thanks, Mike (Personal viewpoint) _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Reply

Manuel Schneider

21 Feb 21 Feb

5:01 a.m.

The list already exists since several months but hasn't been used yet: https://intern.wikimedia.ch/lists/listinfo/wca-announce /Manuel Am 19.02.2013 21:09, schrieb Michael Peel:

...

On 19 Feb 2013, at 19:57, Thehelpfulone <thehelpfulonewiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On 19 February 2013 16:10, Ziko van Dijk <vandijk(a)wmnederland.nl> wrote:

There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.

Thanks Ziko, I'm happy to create this list for you on the Foundation servers, please follow the instructions at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists#Create_a_new_list to file a bug. I'd suggest "WCA-Announce" to match our similar announcement lists for MediaWiki, WLM, Toolserver etc and to keep it relatively short.

Is there a reason why wikimediaannounce-l can't be used here?

-- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

Reply

Charles Andrès

20 Feb 20 Feb

12:22 a.m.

Hello, In fact this mailing list has already been created since a while, it's just not used for the moment. The question of the hosting hasn't been discuss in this way, for the WCA WMCH is offering the hosting of chapters mailing list, "chapters wiki", and some "chapter wiki". So it has just been natural to create the mailing list on WMCH server. It's an illustration of active step the WCA could take. The idea behind offer such "IT" service is to avoid to people to have to reinvent the wheel swell as an optimization of the cost, by sharing a server. Cheers Charles ___________________________________________________________ I use this email for mailing list only. Charles ANDRES, Chairman "Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge – www.wikimedia.ch Skype: charles.andres.wmch IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch Le 19 févr. 2013 à 20:57, Thehelpfulone <thehelpfulonewiki(a)gmail.com> a écrit :

...

On 19 February 2013 16:10, Ziko van Dijk <vandijk(a)wmnederland.nl> wrote:

There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.

Thanks Ziko, I'm happy to create this list for you on the Foundation servers, please follow the instructions at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists#Create_a_new_list to file a bug. I'd suggest "WCA-Announce" to match our similar announcement lists for MediaWiki, WLM, Toolserver etc and to keep it relatively short. -- Thehelpfulone http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Thehelpfulone _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Reply

Fae

5:03 a.m.

On 20 February 2013 08:59, Christophe Henner <christophe.henner(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Why do we need two "announce" mailing lists? Can't we all use wikimedia-announce ?

I don't really care much about how it works, just that it does. Manuel Schneider took an action at the weekend to advise on points of contact, and set up the system where needed. He is wonderfully knowledgeable about our sites and systems, and has the technical skill to sort this out. Even if we do start using our WCA announcements list, I would want to cross post everything of any possible interest. Whether logistics for the WCA action teams needs to be on Wikimedia-announce, I don't know, though if doubt remains I would rather keep cross-posting until there are requests to stop clogging up these extra channels with our info-spam. :-) Thanks, Fae -- Ashley Van Haeften (Fae) faewik(a)gmail.com Chapters Association Council Chair http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCA Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae

Reply

Markus Glaser

7:02 a.m.

Am 21.02.2013 15:57, schrieb Manuel Schneider:

...

I think I have to agree that one announce list is enough. As we haven't started using the wca-announce yet I see no problem in agreeing that we use wikimedia-announce-l instead. /Manuel

+1 We can use a [wca] tag in the subject line as you suggested to raise wca specific awareness. Cheers, Markus -- Markus Glaser WCA Council Member (WMDE) Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.

Reply

Charles Andrès

8:24 a.m.

HI Ziko, Could you give us more information about this action team?, and especially its composition because there is few information here http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Research , no more on the minute of your meeting in London, and I don't remind any public call for joining this team? Sorry to use Wikimedia-l for this question, but if we use the chapters mailing we are criticize, so here the transparency :-) Charles ___________________________________________________________ Charles ANDRES, Chairman "Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge – www.wikimedia.ch Skype: charles.andres.wmch IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch Le 21 févr. 2013 à 16:25, Ziko van Dijk <vandijk(a)wmnederland.nl> a écrit :

...

Hi, Michal and I will soon come up with a general question to the movement, in the frame of the action team "research". Maybe today or tomorrow. Kind regards Ziko 2013/2/21 Markus Glaser <markus.glaser(a)wikimedia.de>de>:

Am 21.02.2013 15:57, schrieb Manuel Schneider:

I think I have to agree that one announce list is enough. As we haven't started using the wca-announce yet I see no problem in agreeing that we use wikimedia-announce-l instead. /Manuel

+1 We can use a [wca] tag in the subject line as you suggested to raise wca specific awareness. Cheers, Markus -- Markus Glaser WCA Council Member (WMDE) Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

-- ----------------------------------------------------------- Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter http://wmnederland.nl/ Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht ----------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Reply

Charles Andrès

19 Feb 19 Feb

11:57 p.m.

Hello Ziko, Because you want to hear: 1)Their is no census within the chapter whether we still want a deputy chair position 2)if we keep a chair and a deputy chair, it has always been planned that this position should be open to vote at the next WCA meeting 3) 7 council member connote decide on their own of keeping in place the deputy chair!! 4)The WCA do not need continuity, since ten month we haven't been able to provide something real , I don't see why we should continue this way Charles ___________________________________________________________ I use this email for mailing list only. Charles ANDRES, Chairman "Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge – www.wikimedia.ch Skype: charles.andres.wmch IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch Le 19 févr. 2013 à 17:10, Ziko van Dijk <vandijk(a)wmnederland.nl> a écrit :

...

Dear Council Members and everyone interested in the WCA, On 16/17th February 2013 a number of Council Members visited the London Conference I had proposed in mid January to talk about the way of the WCA and to prepare the Wikimedia Conference in Milan. We are happy that the London Conference did happen, and, in spite of the debatable WMF board statement of 5th February, that two WMF board members still agreed to join us. Because in 2012/2013 the signals from the WMF were not very consistent I tried to receive more clarity about the relationship between Foundation and Association. This was only partially successful, but I understand that the two present WMF board members were as open as it was possible within the constraints of the WMF board unity. We very much appreciated the commitment of Alice and Jan-Bart and were happy not to hear certain allegations from the board statement again. The London Conference discussed many WCA subjects collected during the last months. One of them was communication, and I am content that I could convince the participants of a major change. For someone who is interested in the WCA it has been very difficult to follow the proceedings, plans and results. When e.g. a Council Member wanted to talk to others or discuss something, he or she used one of the several mailing lists the movement has, or Meta Wiki, or private email addresses. I believe that this has been a fundamental problem with the regard to the perception of the WCA, and that the participation even from Council Members suffered also because of this kind of communication. After the election of a new Chair, the Chair of the WCA Council will issue a Bulletin, a kind of short report, with a summary of what happened recently and what are the plans for the near future. This will be put on Meta Wiki, and, naturally, discussions will centre around those Bulletins. For those who are interested it will be much easier to follow and to participate. If someone wants to support the WCA via translations, he or she can translate those Bulletins instead of a lot of messages. There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l. When we talked about the future and a possible new election of the Chair I also asked about my position. If for any reason someone believed that there should be a new election of the Deputy Chair, I wanted to hear. The participants said that that is no issue and that it is good to have continuity. The role of the Deputy Chair is to be there for the case that at some moment there is no Chair, and then the Deputy has to arrange the election. The WCA continues to exist and will make some rearrangements - it's exiting to follow the evolution. Kind regards Ziko van Dijk -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter http://wmnederland.nl/ Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167 3500 AD Utrecht ----------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Reply

Charles Andrès

21 Feb 21 Feb

3:07 a.m.

Dear Fae, I find it contradictory to consider that anticipated election of the chair is good for WCA but that for the vice chair it would be bad, if we need to have elections before Milano we can have both in parallel. Anyway I was, and I'm still oppose to anticipated election. Since the beginning of the discussion about WCA bylaws , the question of "do we need a chair and a vice chair" hasn't been fixed, and I'm sorry to tell that provoking new election before fixing this point is just bad. Jan-Bart in a previous mail made the good comment that we should stop discussing about membership and voting, but the question here is really about what is the WCA. Several chapters ask for an Iberocoop model, it means that they don't want a chair and a vice chair. The people present in London can argue that at least some position should exist to assure that coordination is done, but the 7 present in London cannot decide for 14 others. By deciding to anticipate the election of the chair it's just what you have done. In your answer you talk about WMF board asking directly or indirectly for your replacement. This argument has been read in the personal comment of board member, and all chapter are aware of that and will take it into account, or not, when the time will come. But we don't need your resignation now whereas the new election is already planned in just two month, the few week of difference will not affect the WCA. Also if you are personally disputed by people outside the chapter, the vice chair is at least equally disputed among the chapter, what's the most important? Finally I will point that WCA is representing 21 chapters for now, and most of those chapters are really tired of discussion in english on meta, asking them to have a "campaign" and a vote online whereas we can have a live vote in Milano is just another way to say "we don't care of you". WCA is needed, but is not needed tomorrow , it's needed when all chapter will participate and make it grow, and we won't have that unless we find the seed action that will make all chapter willing to support is growth, and sorry this is not this list http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Meetings/2013… that will change the actual dynamic. I'm not a magician, I don't have a ready to use solution, but what I'm sure, is that the very first step should be an open discussion between chapters about what is the WCA is, and for that purpose I created this page, to build a survey among chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/survey_march_… I invite all interested people to participate to the creation of this survey. In a second time the same type of survey should be open to the whole movement, but because the WCA is the CHAPTER ASSOCIATION, I think it's reasonable to first know what the first concerned people think. Cheers Charles ___________________________________________________________ I use this email for mailing list only. Charles ANDRES, Chairman "Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge – www.wikimedia.ch Skype: charles.andres.wmch IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch Le 20 févr. 2013 à 09:25, Fae <faewik(a)gmail.com> a écrit :

...

On 20 February 2013 07:57, Charles Andrès <charles.andres.wmch(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Ziko, Because you want to hear: 1)Their is no census within the chapter whether we still want a deputy chair position

It's better for us to focus on the actions we are taking for the next 3 months. We decided to defer discussion about changing roles and considering a board, or changing the titles we currently use. Any member of the Council is welcome to draft a resolution or discuss alternatives, but this will draw the oxygen away from being seen to make progress on solid outcomes, rather than internal affairs.

2)if we keep a chair and a deputy chair, it has always been planned that this position should be open to vote at the next WCA meeting

It was my decision, made after private discussions with Ting and SJ, apparently in response Jimmy Wales raising this for the WMF board's attention immediately after my English Wikipedia ban and before the end of the summer conference in Washington DC, to ensure that we would have an election this spring for the Chair position in a more formal and structured way. Though our vote was valid, I was never very happy at being elected without competition or much discussion. For that reason I was not prepared to just stay in position for 2 years. You will recall that for the Deputy Chair position, there was a competition and discussion so I believe this had a firmer sense of democracy.

3) 7 council member connote decide on their own of keeping in place the deputy chair!!

Similarly, this was no a decision that was ever tabled or considered necessary.

4)The WCA do not need continuity, since ten month we haven't been able to provide something real , I don't see why we should continue this way

We chose to radically re-frame our plans. We have done this in a way that does not require resolutions or complex bureaucracy to move forward. I don't see how asking Ziko to go through an election process now, helps demonstrate that we are taking an external focus. The election process for Chair is a different matter, it was always planned for March and I have chosen to bring this forward based on the continued private approaches to the Council from 5 WMF trustees since my election, who were not happy with the WCA having me as our elected Chair, though the WMF itself has no public position on this matter. Thanks, Fae -- Ashley Van Haeften (Fae) faewik(a)gmail.com Chapters Association Council Chair http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCA Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Reply

Markus Glaser

5:19 a.m.

Hi Charles, from the feedback we had about the WCA, IMHO we need to consider two different issues: * we are criticised for focussing on structures too much. In London, as you can see in the protocol [1], we discussed several options including the one about an executive board, but decided to let form follow function and leave any structural debate for now. Of course, I cannot stop you from doing so, but I will try and focus my time on doing actual work until Milan. * be it justified or not, several key players in the Wikimedia universe do have issues with Fae being Chair. Personally, I value Fae's work a lot. But we need to address the concerns of the world outside the Chapters unless we keep thinking of the WCA as a lonely (non-)player without any relation to the other entities in this Wikimedia world. I respect Fae's decision to react to the current situation and bring forward the election. Whoever will be (re-)elected, we will have a Chair with a lot more support then. I quite like your initiative in creating this survey, thanks for this. At the same time, may I ask you if you coordinated this with Ziko and Michail, who volunteered to do some research along the same lines as you suggested [2]? I should think it makes sense to bundle similar initiatives. What I'd like to avoid is that every WCA council member starts rushing into their own projects. Best, Markus [1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Meetings/2013… [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Meetings/2013…

...

Anyway I was, and I'm still oppose to anticipated election. Since the beginning of the discussion about WCA bylaws , the question of "do we need a chair and a vice chair" hasn't been fixed, and I'm sorry to tell that provoking new election before fixing this point is just bad. Jan-Bart in a previous mail made the good comment that we should stop discussing about membership and voting, but the question here is really about what is the WCA. Several chapters ask for an Iberocoop model, it means that they don't want a chair and a vice chair. The people present in London can argue that at least some position should exist to assure that coordination is done, but the 7 present in London cannot decide for 14 others. By deciding to anticipate the election of the chair it's just what you have done. In your answer you talk about WMF board asking directly or indirectly for your replacement. This argument has been read in the personal comment of board member, and all chapter are aware of that and will take it into account, or not, when the time will come. But we don't need your resignation now whereas the new election is already planned in just two month, the few week of difference will not affect the WCA. Also if you are personally disputed by people outside the chapter, the vice chair is at least equally disputed among the chapter, what's the most important? Finally I will point that WCA is representing 21 chapters for now, and most of those chapters are really tired of discussion in english on meta, asking them to have a "campaign" and a vote online whereas we can have a live vote in Milano is just another way to say "we don't care of you". WCA is needed, but is not needed tomorrow , it's needed when all chapter will participate and make it grow, and we won't have that unless we find the seed action that will make all chapter willing to support is growth, and sorry this is not this list http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Meetings/2013… that will change the actual dynamic. I'm not a magician, I don't have a ready to use solution, but what I'm sure, is that the very first step should be an open discussion between chapters about what is the WCA is, and for that purpose I created this page, to build a survey among chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/survey_march_… I invite all interested people to participate to the creation of this survey. In a second time the same type of survey should be open to the whole movement, but because the WCA is the CHAPTER ASSOCIATION, I think it's reasonable to first know what the first concerned people think. Cheers Charles ___________________________________________________________ I use this email for mailing list only. Charles ANDRES, Chairman "Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge – www.wikimedia.ch Skype: charles.andres.wmch IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch Le 20 févr. 2013 à 09:25, Fae <faewik(a)gmail.com> a écrit :